And here, the law is determined by the original intentions of the People of the respective individual states themselves– which was ALWAYS to declare and retain their idividual soveriegnty, not throw it away to create a single massive empire.

Your pragmatism is likewis Machiavellian at best, claiming that the sword defeats all law and logic; I think you’ll find little future with that base mentality– Vikings and Mongols are things of the past.

As for the rest: my purpose is not to “lead,” but simply but to inform.

I am QUITE familiar with all of your fallacies that you mentioned, thank you very much, and I’ve dispatched them many times; so consider yourself another notch, another expended round and another emptied chamber.

You clearly don’t even know secession– which is legal– from REBELLION, which is NOT; also Jackson was just as deluded as Lincoln, making claims which likewise went against historical fact. On the contrary, Lincoln was PLAGIARIZING Jackson in his First Inaugural speech, having used Jackson’s 1832 Proclamation-speech as one of only three writers– the others being similar charlatans of Daniel Webster and Joseph Story.

Likewise, it doesn’t MATTER if each new state was recognized by “discrete action” or not; after all, the Paris Peace Treaty of 1783 was a joint action among various states including Britain and France.

Likewise, a “federal action” to admit a new state into the Union, still requires recognition of such via the MAJORITY of existing states, va their respective federal delegates– but that’s going by the book: in reality, the people of each new state, have the same right to self-government, as the existing states: i.e. by virtue of the democratic right of self-government claimed by the original 13. This power did NOT accrue to simply whatever doof held title to the real-estate, otherwise they’d still be ruled by the British Crown.

As for history: the Republicans waged the War Between the States, under the claim that it was a CIVIL war– i.e. between the citizens of a single sovereign state; and while the victor of any war is entitled to force his opinion on the vanquished, he is NOT the arbiter of historical FACT: and International Law and national sovereignty is determined ONLY the facts of the matter.

In short, one cannot conquer sovereign nations, under a claim of CIVIL war, simply because they happen to WIN: simply forcing a nation to admit legal subordination at gunpoint, doesn’t make TRUE under international law– any more than armed robby is a “gift.”

So before you find fault with my arguments, you might want to try getting your FACTS straight.

You cite a statement I made about the PRACTICALITY of secession, then proceed with a tirade about its LEGALITY. There is a difference. If the Confederacy had won the Civil War, secession would have been practically accomplished even if technically illegal, and if secession was constitutionally sound, it would not be rendered one whit more practical in the face of a federal conquest.

The PRACTICAL point was that if an independent sovereign state at the mouth of the Mississippi River cut off or infringed trade by farmers upstream, there would be a war to settle the difference. There are many other practical, geographic considerations of a similar nature. They will trump all the high-flown philosophical rhetoric of any number of dime-store John C. Calhouns. Our state boundaries can only be maintained and adhered to within a union.

Now before you think trashing Abraham Lincoln will make your point, don’t forget who stuffed a sock in Calhoun’s mouth: the Great Democrat, none other than General Andrew Jackson, who announced “The United States is a government, not a league,” and practically twisted Calhoun’s arm with his toast “Our federal union, it must be preserved.” South Carolina almost always wanted to secede, because it wanted out from under the guarantee of “a republican form of government.” The majority of the “white” population didn’t qualify for the franchise until after the Civil War, and nobody who owned less than 20 slaves could serve in the upper house of the legislature. Damned aristocrats.

No state admitted to the union after the original 13 was recognized by discrete action of the previously existing sovereign states. Each was recognized by an act of the federal congress, which also had to approve its constitution. No matter how you may try to twist words, history is real, what’s done is done, and there is no going back to undo it.

Kevin Carson’s analogy to Germany doesn’t hold water either. Germany was neither annexed by conquest, nor did it petition for annexation, nor was it created of whole cloth out of unsettled national territory. It was occupied for a time until the objectives of the war were well established, then returned to a sovereignty it had never merged into any other entity. Now, whether it can secede from the European Union, might be an interesting question, but it depends in part on the nature of the compact creating said union.

To wit:

“We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by the authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, that these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do.”

So as far as they were concerned, they were each completely self-ruling from that time onward.

Some tories put forth the fact that Parliament’s choice of William and Mary held good in the colonies, as proof that the colonies were subordinate to Britain. But Adams argued that the colonies accepted W & M in James II’s stead of their own sovereign will. BTW, there’s some justice to that contention, since the New Englanders overthrew Governor Andros before news ever reached them of William’s invasion.

“First, while the original 13 colonies might have a claim to secession, most of the remaining states were formed from national territory in accordance with the prescription of the federal constitution. So, outside of the union, they have no right to exist at all.”

It doesn’t work that way. Once a state is recognized as equal by other sovereign states, it becomes likewise sovereign in its own right: for example, the 13 colonies only became sovereign states, because they were recognized as such by the sovereign states of Britain and France; and likewise, each NEW American state was recognized by the original 13, as an equal to themselves.
So there’s no way to say that new states are any less sovereign than the original 13. Anyone who says otherwise, simply doesn’t know what they’re talking about– and that includes one Abe Lincoln.

“Kirkpatrick, the best form of ‘direct action’ in behalf of secession is to secede. Not politically, of course, because that is not possible at the moment.”

It certainly is, as proven in Iran– when Twitter and video-phone proved mightier than the sword.

Likewise, gone are the days when a bearded baboon-president can spout a few lines of gibberish about “fourscore and seven years” etc., and invade sovereign nations without a peep of protest, since he ALSO jails anyone who speaks out against him for “helping a rebellion.”

No, today the fed can’t get away with using force, without first presenting proof of their authority; and they HAVE no proof of legal authority against any state, since they HAVE no legal authority.

I agree; if you only have half a brain you’d think that.
However anyone with a WHOLE brain, would know that each state was fully sovereign unto itself ever since 1783– and that NEVER changed by any law.

Half-wits like Lincoln might believe that sovereignty was conjoined like Siamese twins simply because they were part of a “union” of some sort when it they became sovereign, and that “they declared independence from Great Britain, not from each other”– which made absolutely ZERO sense, since the colonies HAD no national dependence on each other to begin with– and they likewise declared themselves each to be sovereign states, each with the power to declare wars, conduct treaties, and “do all of those other things with independent states may by right do.”

So Lincoln just pulled this “perpetual nation” out of thin air, and jailed anyone who told the truth– i.e. he created an empire of lies, just like any fascist dictator.

New states were likewise sovereign, since they were recognized as equal to the ORIGINAL states; and states only need to be recognized by EXISTING sovereign states, in order to become sovereign themselves.
American state sovereignty is based on the inalienable right of self-government– NOT on title to real-estate; otherwise the colonies are still the property of Great Britain.

Finally, the “Civil War” didn’t change anything, since it was based on the claim that the states were ALWAYS part of the same nation; so if they were each sovereign nations unto themselves, then so they REMAIN. One can’t say that the war was authorized by rebellion against “the nation,” but then say that it was a nation because the Union won AFTERWARD– that’s a contradiction AND a lie.

So today, we live under an empire that was created by a LIE from 140 years ago– and we continue to LIVE that lie every day.

It’s time to END THE LIE.
THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE.

First, while the original 13 colonies might have a claim to secession, most of the remaining states were formed from national territory in accordance with the prescription of the federal constitution. So, outside of the union, they have no right to exist at all. In fact, the original inhabitants signed treaties with The United States. If the United States no longer has jurisdiction, they can legally take it all back. The rental income would be much more lucrative than running a few casinos. Practically, they might have difficulty enforcing their writ, but there was something said here about whether secession is legal. Not for 37 states it isn’t.

Texas? True, Texas did enter the union as an independent state, by treaty. However, unless the treaty contained a provision authorizing it to secede, it waived that right. It was awfully anxious to affiliate at the time. Its government was semi-bankrupt, it was in constant danger of being retaken by Mexico, In fact, The United States fought a war to establish the boundaries of Texas at the Rio Grande, so, no, its too late for them to secede either. Possibly the Hawaiian monarchy has a claim to a come-back, but nobody else in Hawaii does. They are either there by permission of the Queen, or of the United States.

Virginia and Tennessee were both proved to be hypocrites about secession. First, the state government said “We don’t like what the feds are doing, we secede,” then they tell western Virginia and eastern Tennessee “we took a vote and you have to abide by the majority.” Yeah? What about y’all abiding by the outcome of the federal election. If you can secede, we can secede. It was never a war between the states, as Clement Vallandigham and Newton Knight demonstrated. My great great grandfather was Lt. Colonel of the 11th Tennessee Cavalry — United States Army.

Also, as far as constitutional legality goes, after the war, the Fourteenth Amendment established something called “citizens of the United States,” and that pretty well closes off secession too, along with a few other clauses. That amendment would not have been passed except in the aftermath of a bloody civil war, and neither would the 13th or 15th, but praise God we were put through what we had to be put through to adopt them all. Read Lincoln’s Second Inaugural Address.

Now, as for practicality, everyone with half a brain knew in 1861 that the southern states couldn’t simply go their separate ways peacefully. We would be continuing to fight each other over every inch of westward expansion. Best to just get it over with. One of Lincoln’s problems was that farmers in the midwest weren’t going to stick with the war effort if he couldn’t open up the Mississippi River for them to ship their grain to market by barge. The railroads were gouging them. That is one reason the union army had to clear the Mississippi, taking New Orleans and Vicksburg, even faster than it had to take Richmond. Fortunately, its more competent generals were out west, although the best of the lot, George Thomas of Virginia, was not put into command nearly as early as he should have.

There is no state in this union which could function as an independent entity without living on sufferance of its neighbors, or going to war with them. Can you imagine Illinois and Missouri going to war against New Orleans, and telling everybody in between “you’re either with us or against us”? Tolls at every state line on the Union Pacific Railway? It’s a sweet pathetic fantasy, it might be a way to let some steam off, but it ain’t going to happen.

At best, secession might begin a revolt against federal tyranny which, if it rolled all across the country, could be the vehicle for reconstructing the entire nation. Only, none of us can be confident that what emerges would be any more to our liking. Whatever we end up with, its all of us or none of us.

In just about any city with a population in or above the low tens of thousands, the local government is a showcase property of the local real estate industry.

In Fayetteville, Ark., three years ago Mayor Dan Coody (who’d been elected by the “green” faction, on a “smart growth” platform, to rein in the real estate interests) proposed a one cent sales tax to fund expansion of the overburdened sewer system. Now, the cause of the problem was the new housing developments and strip malls springing up all over the place, built primarily by billionaire real estate developer and Trump-wannabe Jim Lindsey. But Coody said the “only alternatives” were the sales tax or a 30% increase in sewer rates. That’s the way it works, see: he tells us what the “only alternatives” are, and we good little voters choose from what’s put on our plates. Increasing sewer hookup fees to cover the costs Lindsey and the other hogs at the trough were imposing on the system was never even considered.

The voters, convinced by Coody’s hint that “out-of-town” shoppers would bear much of the burden (it’s always easier to cheat a greedy man), voted for the tax.

Then, next year, sewer impact fees came up as a local ballot issue. You’ll never convince me the timing and the wording of the proposal weren’t a deliberate strategy of the real estate interests. Since the proposal came after the voters had already approved the sales tax, and not before, they were obviously likely to reject it as double taxation. And they’d have been a lot more likely to approve it if it had been proposed as a *replacement* for the sales tax they were already paying.

Now, the “progressive” element in Fayetteville have a better shot than anywhere else in NW Arkansas. In most other towns, whatever the good ol’ boys want just gets quietly passed without a peep of public debate. In Fayetteville, a college town with a large contingent of “back to the land” hippies who settled there in the ’70s, there is at least grass-roots organizing and heated debate over everything–before the good ol’ boys win. And Coody was the fair-haired boy of the “progressives,” put forth as David to the Chamber of Commerce’s Goliath. His election was the closest thing to a victory the “progressive” and “green” coalition was or will be ever likely to see. And in the end, he was just another greenwashed good ol’ boy.

At the level of NW Arkansas as a whole, the Washington-Benton County area (with a population of several hundred thousand) has an organization called the Northwest Arkansas Council. It’s a nominally private shadow government, made up of representatives of local corporate powerhouses like Wal-Mart, Tyson, J.B. Hunt (and of course the above-mentioned Jim Lindsey), along with ex officio representatives of local governments and the University. It’s primary purpose, civic-minded lot that they are, is to promote the building of regional “infrastructure” for “economic growth,” and all kinds of other “government-business partnership” (IOW, line up at the trough, corporate welfare piggies!). I think there’s a similar organization in just about every metropolitan area in the country of the same size or larger.

For decades, regional elites had attempted to railroad through a regional airport to serve their interests, only to have it fail when it came up for a vote. In 1990, the NWA Council changed its strategy. Like a filthy sneak-thief skulking about under cover of darkness, it quietly lobbied five city and two country governments to create a regional airport authority. You’d expect such an authority to be the topic of extensive public debate, considering that under state law such authorities have power to condemn land and levy taxes, and are immortal corporations so long as any two member governments remain parties to them. You’d expect wrong. The seven local governments, under secret pressure from the REAL GOVERNMENT of Northwest Arkansas, voted to create the authority as an “emergency ordinance”–without any prior notice, multiple readings, or chance for public debate. The Northwest Arkansas Council, in partnership with the NWA Regional Airport Authority, immediately began a campaign to suppress opposition. “Leadership Fayetteville,” an elite annual seminar in the city Chamber of Commerce, devoted its primary focus to how to combat the “anti-growth” faction that had “hijacked” Fayetteville. Shortly after, under pressure from local movers and shakers, a popular radio DJ and the editor of the Northwest Arkansas Times were fired (they’d both been active proponents of a public vote on the airport issue). In the end, the airport was railroaded through. We now have a regional airport at Highfill, serving the interests of Tyson, Wal-Mart and J.B. Hunt.

God damn the people who did this to us. God damn them to hell.

And so it goes. Democracy doesn’t work, at least not above the level of face-to-face direct democracy. The problem is, regardless of how formally democratic the system of representation is, no matter how “progressive” the controls on campaign finance (or even public financing), government is by its nature a centralized machine whose day-to-day operations must be carried out by a few people. And by the nature of things, there will be a close affinity between them and similar elites running the corporate economic system, and other centralized institutional networks like the big charitable foundations and universities. By the nature of things, the average person has only limited energy and attention to devote to public issues, and to keeping an eye on those engaged in public business. The average person, by necessity, will always devote the overwhelming share of his energy and attention to work, family, and friends. But for the insiders actually running the large institutions, the politics and policies of those institutions ARE their work and friends. So the insiders, and the small circles of wealthy outsiders whose pecuniary interests depend most heavily subsidies and protections, will always have an advantage in time, energy, attention, information, and agenda control. Democracy is and must be a sham, because the public’s attention will always be the first to wander.

At the national level, Obama is probably the closest thing to a “progressive” president ever likely to be elected–a sort of national Dan Coody, in fact. A friend of Alinsky and “community organizer,” he came across last year as a sort of Jerry Brown knockoff, the outside-the-box alternative to Hillary Clinton (who was almost a parody of establishment managerial liberalism). And what has he done?

He’s pursued a Wall Street bailout policy that’s a direct continuation of Paulson’s version of TARP, based on the uber-Hamiltonian project of using taxpayer money to (at least partially) reinflate the value of the plutocracy’s investment assets.

He’s pushed through a “stimulus” whose primary goal is to restore the suicidal and pathological economic model of running overbuilt industry at full capacity (when can only be done, given its present capacity, through consumer debt and planned obsolescence–the latter extending to actually paying people, via the latest “Cash for [insert name of subsidized industry here]” program, to throw stuff away and replace it. Well, THAT’s certainly a sustainable economic model. Should work out great, as long as the government can afford to run a $2 trillion deficit indefinitely.

He’s designed a “progressive” healthcare reform whose overall paramaters were fixed at the beginning by the insurance and pharma industries.