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	<title>Comments on: John Calvin and the Land of Chocolate</title>
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		<title>By: Clare Krishan</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/06/john-calvin-and-the-land-of-chocolate/#comment-4117</link>
		<dc:creator>Clare Krishan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:55:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Interesting localism angle to the banking secrecy thingummy over at the DailyKos:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/6/11/741373/-Is-it-all-funny-money

Why not communitarian money ?

&quot;On a practical level, money has a practical function: it allows the goods and services produced by labor to be traded.  So why not a money system where each group within working class would have direct control over the printing, availability, and value of money?  I suppose there would still be counterfeiting under such a system, though with a lot of small money systems there would be a lot less motivation to counterfeit money, as well as a lot more EMPOWERED public outrage about the counterfeiters.  

If I know that my group and I have made a conscious decision to back the value of our money, rather than having an externally-directed money economy shoved down our throats (pretty much the situation now), then I&#039;m more likely to be able to do something about economic problems (eg counterfeiting), because I would be able to do something about them.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting localism angle to the banking secrecy thingummy over at the DailyKos:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/6/11/741373/-Is-it-all-funny-money" rel="nofollow">http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/6/11/741373/-Is-it-all-funny-money</a></p>
<p>Why not communitarian money ?</p>
<p>&#8220;On a practical level, money has a practical function: it allows the goods and services produced by labor to be traded.  So why not a money system where each group within working class would have direct control over the printing, availability, and value of money?  I suppose there would still be counterfeiting under such a system, though with a lot of small money systems there would be a lot less motivation to counterfeit money, as well as a lot more EMPOWERED public outrage about the counterfeiters.  </p>
<p>If I know that my group and I have made a conscious decision to back the value of our money, rather than having an externally-directed money economy shoved down our throats (pretty much the situation now), then I&#8217;m more likely to be able to do something about economic problems (eg counterfeiting), because I would be able to do something about them.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Hart on Calvin and the Land of Chocolate &#171; Heidelblog</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/06/john-calvin-and-the-land-of-chocolate/#comment-4100</link>
		<dc:creator>Hart on Calvin and the Land of Chocolate &#171; Heidelblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:27:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] June 11, 2009 in Calvin500 &#124; Tags: calvin, Calvin500, d. g. hart    At Front Porch Republic. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] June 11, 2009 in Calvin500 | Tags: calvin, Calvin500, d. g. hart    At Front Porch Republic. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Allan</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/06/john-calvin-and-the-land-of-chocolate/#comment-4096</link>
		<dc:creator>Allan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:32:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=3890#comment-4096</guid>
		<description>&quot;Next month, American Presbyterian church leaders are sponsoring another conference which mixes scholarly talks with real sermons to enlighten and inspire those lay people whose investments did not go entirely south last fall. (Yes, this is a version of Protestant pilgrimage; the sessions will actually be held in St. Peter’s Cathedral where Calvin preached and administered the sacraments for the better part of three decades.)&quot;

Finally someone said it.  Thank you DGH.  Why is this not seen as worldliness by those who have been ordained to lead Christ&#039;s sheep?  At the risk of being called an egalitarian anti-elitist, so much of these conferences comes across as just a country-club for academics.  I am all for educated ministers to the highest degree (as opposed to evangelicalism&#039;s downplaying of educated ministers) but something seems missing in the biblical ethic of ministers/christians given gifts/being educated to serve Christ&#039;s people.  It is difficult to see these conferences as something other than academics serving themselves and those who can afford the costs of attendance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Next month, American Presbyterian church leaders are sponsoring another conference which mixes scholarly talks with real sermons to enlighten and inspire those lay people whose investments did not go entirely south last fall. (Yes, this is a version of Protestant pilgrimage; the sessions will actually be held in St. Peter’s Cathedral where Calvin preached and administered the sacraments for the better part of three decades.)&#8221;</p>
<p>Finally someone said it.  Thank you DGH.  Why is this not seen as worldliness by those who have been ordained to lead Christ&#8217;s sheep?  At the risk of being called an egalitarian anti-elitist, so much of these conferences comes across as just a country-club for academics.  I am all for educated ministers to the highest degree (as opposed to evangelicalism&#8217;s downplaying of educated ministers) but something seems missing in the biblical ethic of ministers/christians given gifts/being educated to serve Christ&#8217;s people.  It is difficult to see these conferences as something other than academics serving themselves and those who can afford the costs of attendance.</p>
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		<title>By: John Médaille</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/06/john-calvin-and-the-land-of-chocolate/#comment-4067</link>
		<dc:creator>John Médaille</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:31:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=3890#comment-4067</guid>
		<description>I have no Presbyterian enemies that I am aware of, or at least no enemies who are such because they are Presbyterian and I am not; they have found other and more valid reasons to take exception to my character.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have no Presbyterian enemies that I am aware of, or at least no enemies who are such because they are Presbyterian and I am not; they have found other and more valid reasons to take exception to my character.</p>
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		<title>By: dgh</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/06/john-calvin-and-the-land-of-chocolate/#comment-4061</link>
		<dc:creator>dgh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:58:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=3890#comment-4061</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t suppose John M. is apologizing to his Presbyterian enemies.

The point of the piece was that Calvin&#039;s defenders and detractors each engage in global as opposed to local readings of the Reformed tradition.  But if you applied a localist outlook, then you might try to look for connections between Calvin and Geneva and Switzerland, rather than Queen Wilhelmina, the defeat of the Spanish Armada, Massachusetts Bay Colony, or Holland, Michigan.  

And this, of course, raises all sorts of questions about various Christian efforts to tie the &quot;West&quot; -- a very anti-local notion -- to any branch of the church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t suppose John M. is apologizing to his Presbyterian enemies.</p>
<p>The point of the piece was that Calvin&#8217;s defenders and detractors each engage in global as opposed to local readings of the Reformed tradition.  But if you applied a localist outlook, then you might try to look for connections between Calvin and Geneva and Switzerland, rather than Queen Wilhelmina, the defeat of the Spanish Armada, Massachusetts Bay Colony, or Holland, Michigan.  </p>
<p>And this, of course, raises all sorts of questions about various Christian efforts to tie the &#8220;West&#8221; &#8212; a very anti-local notion &#8212; to any branch of the church.</p>
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		<title>By: Clare Krishan</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/06/john-calvin-and-the-land-of-chocolate/#comment-4057</link>
		<dc:creator>Clare Krishan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:36:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=3890#comment-4057</guid>
		<description>gotta love the italian flourish accusing the Swiss of money laundering:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;&quot;e producendo utili fantasmagorici&quot;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

http://www.ilgiornale.it/a.pic1?ID=356715

&quot;producing phantasmagorical utility&quot; ... well indeed, if its useful to us because we say its valid, who cares if its legitimate? Its US 134.5 billion, after all...

What a parable for the times</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gotta love the italian flourish accusing the Swiss of money laundering:</p>
<blockquote><p><i>&#8220;e producendo utili fantasmagorici&#8221;</i></p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.ilgiornale.it/a.pic1?ID=356715" rel="nofollow">http://www.ilgiornale.it/a.pic1?ID=356715</a></p>
<p>&#8220;producing phantasmagorical utility&#8221; &#8230; well indeed, if its useful to us because we say its valid, who cares if its legitimate? Its US 134.5 billion, after all&#8230;</p>
<p>What a parable for the times</p>
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		<title>By: Clare Krishan</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/06/john-calvin-and-the-land-of-chocolate/#comment-4055</link>
		<dc:creator>Clare Krishan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:17:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=3890#comment-4055</guid>
		<description>Swiss bank secrecy would certainly be helpful 
http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&amp;art=15456&amp;size=A 
if you wanted to dump US securities before the rest of the world, right? 
Absolutes or relatives, that is the question...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Swiss bank secrecy would certainly be helpful<br />
<a href="http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&#038;art=15456&#038;size=A" rel="nofollow">http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&#038;art=15456&#038;size=A</a><br />
if you wanted to dump US securities before the rest of the world, right?<br />
Absolutes or relatives, that is the question&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Nicoloso</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/06/john-calvin-and-the-land-of-chocolate/#comment-4049</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Nicoloso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:30:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=3890#comment-4049</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Switzerland might be the way it is partly just because people wanted to and could be left alone for the most part, rather than because a Frenchman with a penchant for singing psalms said one thing or another in Book Four of his Institutes about government.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Indeed.  Switzerland is not the way it is because of Calvin, but no doubt in spite of him and, more to the point, his intellectual heirs, who had far more success in erecting their various totems in lands far removed from the &quot;stifling&quot; influence of medieval traditions.
 
&lt;blockquote&gt;I do wonder, though, if attributing our favorite political forms and theories to our favorite theological forms and theories isn’t always impossibly circular.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Or attributing morbid political forms to our least favorite theology.  Heh!  But I don&#039;t think this is necessarily so.  Ideas do actually have consequences.  Liberal democracy arose naturally where it arose, and was quite successful (or less morbid) where it arose, because of Calvinism.  By way of contrast, the morbidity of liberal democracy was almost immediately apparent (at least to those, like Burke, who payed attention) in predominantly Catholic countries.  The current triumph of liberal democracy, enforced literally since WWII at gunpoint, is not so much a case of liberal democracy adapting to fit various religious and cultural backdrops, as it is one of turning the whole world (more or less, with notable exceptions) low church Protestant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Switzerland might be the way it is partly just because people wanted to and could be left alone for the most part, rather than because a Frenchman with a penchant for singing psalms said one thing or another in Book Four of his Institutes about government.</p></blockquote>
<p>Indeed.  Switzerland is not the way it is because of Calvin, but no doubt in spite of him and, more to the point, his intellectual heirs, who had far more success in erecting their various totems in lands far removed from the &#8220;stifling&#8221; influence of medieval traditions.</p>
<blockquote><p>I do wonder, though, if attributing our favorite political forms and theories to our favorite theological forms and theories isn’t always impossibly circular.</p></blockquote>
<p>Or attributing morbid political forms to our least favorite theology.  Heh!  But I don&#8217;t think this is necessarily so.  Ideas do actually have consequences.  Liberal democracy arose naturally where it arose, and was quite successful (or less morbid) where it arose, because of Calvinism.  By way of contrast, the morbidity of liberal democracy was almost immediately apparent (at least to those, like Burke, who payed attention) in predominantly Catholic countries.  The current triumph of liberal democracy, enforced literally since WWII at gunpoint, is not so much a case of liberal democracy adapting to fit various religious and cultural backdrops, as it is one of turning the whole world (more or less, with notable exceptions) low church Protestant.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Koontz</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/06/john-calvin-and-the-land-of-chocolate/#comment-4041</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Koontz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:16:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=3890#comment-4041</guid>
		<description>As Darryl can probably guess, I&#039;m not much in the habit of thanking Calvinism, even &quot;in its most virulent and successful forms,&quot; for much of anything, which means I&#039;ll also refrain from attributing the cigarette- and baby-hating vagaries of the modern American state to it. I do wonder, though, if attributing our favorite political forms and theories to our favorite theological forms and theories isn&#039;t always impossibly circular. Because at least within Western Christianity, I could find someone or some group within almost any confession who at some time made the case for republican federalism, democracy, monarchy, the welfare-warfare state, etc. Without positing the existence of too many Baptist monarchists or Methodist anarchists, the multiplicity of reasons for a nation&#039;s political forms and history is hard to reconcile with the clarity of a particular confession or theologian, as the coexistence of RC&#039;s and Reformed in both supposedly uber-Calvinist Holland and Switzerland and the multitude of denominations in &quot;Puritan&quot; America shows. That&#039;s a lot of freedom-hating papists, statist Lutherans, and heretical Quakers to account for in the histories of these Calvinist countries. Switzerland might be the way it is partly just because people wanted to and could be left alone for the most part, rather than because a Frenchman with a penchant for singing psalms said one thing or another in Book Four of his Institutes about government.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Darryl can probably guess, I&#8217;m not much in the habit of thanking Calvinism, even &#8220;in its most virulent and successful forms,&#8221; for much of anything, which means I&#8217;ll also refrain from attributing the cigarette- and baby-hating vagaries of the modern American state to it. I do wonder, though, if attributing our favorite political forms and theories to our favorite theological forms and theories isn&#8217;t always impossibly circular. Because at least within Western Christianity, I could find someone or some group within almost any confession who at some time made the case for republican federalism, democracy, monarchy, the welfare-warfare state, etc. Without positing the existence of too many Baptist monarchists or Methodist anarchists, the multiplicity of reasons for a nation&#8217;s political forms and history is hard to reconcile with the clarity of a particular confession or theologian, as the coexistence of RC&#8217;s and Reformed in both supposedly uber-Calvinist Holland and Switzerland and the multitude of denominations in &#8220;Puritan&#8221; America shows. That&#8217;s a lot of freedom-hating papists, statist Lutherans, and heretical Quakers to account for in the histories of these Calvinist countries. Switzerland might be the way it is partly just because people wanted to and could be left alone for the most part, rather than because a Frenchman with a penchant for singing psalms said one thing or another in Book Four of his Institutes about government.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Peters</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/06/john-calvin-and-the-land-of-chocolate/#comment-4032</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Peters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:26:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=3890#comment-4032</guid>
		<description>&quot;If John Calvin gets credit for a renewed interest in national restraint and real political independence, so much the better.&quot;

If?

The Kuyperian gene is a hearty one; it has produced some cheerleaders almost as enthusiastic as Father Abraham himself.  Jean Cauvin will get credit, all right.  I was edumacated--at the school bearing his name--by people certain that Calvin had also appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration--along with those other three people.

But even the brilliance of Jesus is diminished in his followers. JC (the Genevan, not the Galilean) did give us the &lt;em&gt;Institutes&lt;/em&gt;, which are certainly worth the trouble.

Apologies to all my EO and RC friends.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If John Calvin gets credit for a renewed interest in national restraint and real political independence, so much the better.&#8221;</p>
<p>If?</p>
<p>The Kuyperian gene is a hearty one; it has produced some cheerleaders almost as enthusiastic as Father Abraham himself.  Jean Cauvin will get credit, all right.  I was edumacated&#8211;at the school bearing his name&#8211;by people certain that Calvin had also appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration&#8211;along with those other three people.</p>
<p>But even the brilliance of Jesus is diminished in his followers. JC (the Genevan, not the Galilean) did give us the <em>Institutes</em>, which are certainly worth the trouble.</p>
<p>Apologies to all my EO and RC friends.</p>
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		<title>By: John Médaille</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/06/john-calvin-and-the-land-of-chocolate/#comment-4028</link>
		<dc:creator>John Médaille</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 01:43:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=3890#comment-4028</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Both groups responsible for these conferences have not shied away from attributing to Calvin many of the so-called blessings of the modern world – democracy, capitalism, and education for starters.&lt;/i&gt;

Of course, both groups are correct. The problem is that the Calvinists might be responsible for &lt;i&gt;modern&lt;/i&gt; democracy (which is so undemocratic), &lt;i&gt;modern&lt;/i&gt; capitalism (which is so uneconomic), and &lt;i&gt; modern mis-&lt;/i&gt;education. And all that is before we get to the touchy subjects of Dutch independence, the Glorious Revolution, and the founding of America.

But the Chocolate is good.

Apologies to all my Presbyterian friends.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Both groups responsible for these conferences have not shied away from attributing to Calvin many of the so-called blessings of the modern world – democracy, capitalism, and education for starters.</i></p>
<p>Of course, both groups are correct. The problem is that the Calvinists might be responsible for <i>modern</i> democracy (which is so undemocratic), <i>modern</i> capitalism (which is so uneconomic), and <i> modern mis-</i>education. And all that is before we get to the touchy subjects of Dutch independence, the Glorious Revolution, and the founding of America.</p>
<p>But the Chocolate is good.</p>
<p>Apologies to all my Presbyterian friends.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Nicoloso</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/06/john-calvin-and-the-land-of-chocolate/#comment-4020</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Nicoloso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 21:59:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=3890#comment-4020</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Kuyper himself credited Calvinism with Dutch independence, the Glorious Revolution of 1688, and the founding of America.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In broad strokes, this is no doubt true, but why stop there?  The deformations of puritanism have continued unabated and even flourished down to the present day.  Even by the time of the American founding, puritanism had evolved thoroughly into congregtionalism and a healthy close cousin unitarianism, the latter of which (in practice, if not theology proper) swallowed up nearly all of mainstream protestantism; to which we can attribute abolitionism, women&#039;s suffrage, teetotalism, prohibition of drugs and alcohol, anti-smoking statutes. It is arguably the most successful mutant social gene the world has ever known.  A 16 year-old girl can get abortion (in many states) without informing her parents, but yet cannot buy cigarettes even with a note from the same.  For this we can thank Calvinism, in its most virulent and successful forms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Kuyper himself credited Calvinism with Dutch independence, the Glorious Revolution of 1688, and the founding of America.</p></blockquote>
<p>In broad strokes, this is no doubt true, but why stop there?  The deformations of puritanism have continued unabated and even flourished down to the present day.  Even by the time of the American founding, puritanism had evolved thoroughly into congregtionalism and a healthy close cousin unitarianism, the latter of which (in practice, if not theology proper) swallowed up nearly all of mainstream protestantism; to which we can attribute abolitionism, women&#8217;s suffrage, teetotalism, prohibition of drugs and alcohol, anti-smoking statutes. It is arguably the most successful mutant social gene the world has ever known.  A 16 year-old girl can get abortion (in many states) without informing her parents, but yet cannot buy cigarettes even with a note from the same.  For this we can thank Calvinism, in its most virulent and successful forms.</p>
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