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	<title>Comments on: Education as Moral Formation: A Localist Proposal</title>
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	<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/11/education-as-moral-formation-a-localist-proposal/</link>
	<description>Place. Limits. Liberty.</description>
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		<title>By: Commonplace Book 1/18/10 &#187; Brett A. Stroud</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/11/education-as-moral-formation-a-localist-proposal/#comment-25412</link>
		<dc:creator>Commonplace Book 1/18/10 &#187; Brett A. Stroud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:54:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Jeffrey Polet offers some suggestions for the restructuring of colleges to meet the needs of moral f... [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Jeffrey Polet offers some suggestions for the restructuring of colleges to meet the needs of moral f&#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Their Time Up at State College &#124; Front Porch Republic</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/11/education-as-moral-formation-a-localist-proposal/#comment-24330</link>
		<dc:creator>Their Time Up at State College &#124; Front Porch Republic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 05:02:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] I came across an old poem of mine, the other day, that seems like an appropriate riposte to Jeffrey Polet’s recent essay on education and character.  Needless to say, this hardly constitutes a complete response or formal commentary; it merely [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I came across an old poem of mine, the other day, that seems like an appropriate riposte to Jeffrey Polet’s recent essay on education and character.  Needless to say, this hardly constitutes a complete response or formal commentary; it merely [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Alfredo</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/11/education-as-moral-formation-a-localist-proposal/#comment-24208</link>
		<dc:creator>Alfredo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 11:11:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The highest good is happiness. We attain happiness by the development and exercise of virtue. The highest good of the city is the same as the highest good of the individual. And how much greater is the highest good for the many than the individual.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The highest good is happiness. We attain happiness by the development and exercise of virtue. The highest good of the city is the same as the highest good of the individual. And how much greater is the highest good for the many than the individual.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Adderley</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/11/education-as-moral-formation-a-localist-proposal/#comment-23219</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Adderley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 01:36:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7233#comment-23219</guid>
		<description>You make good point, Jeff.  I think, though, that the main problem with the higher education labor market is greed.  Essentially, our problem is that there are far more PhD graduates than there are jobs for them.  The reason there are so many PhD graduates is that they&#039;ve been taken into departments primarily as cheap labor for the huge number of freshman classes universities offer.  The reason there are so many freshman classes is because universities have become indiscriminate about how many students they accept--they&#039;re more interested in making large amounts of money than in accepting the right kind and number of students.

The only solution is to be much more careful about who you offer tenure to, if you have to offer tenure.  (In my experience, anyway, tenure is simply something that senior professors use to bully junior professors and get lazy about their teaching.)

I too have met many PhD&#039;d professors who are incompetent teachers.  But all other things being equal, it&#039;s surely better to hire a PhD than someone with a Master&#039;s degree, just because the PhD involves an extra five years of education.  That has to be something we value!  The five years is just long enough to begin to get healthily cynical about higher education--notice how many folks drop out of their programs before they finish their dissertations.  It also confers a certain depth of knowledge--someone with only a Master&#039;s level education is only two years ahead of the seniors s/he is teaching.

The lack of a doctorate is sometimes--not always--evidence that the professor lacked an interest in education, and simply wanted a job.  The Master&#039;s degree was the minimum requirement.  I&#039;ve had many colleagues who fell into that category.  I&#039;m not altogether sure that sort of lack of initiative needs to be rewarded.

Cheers,
Mark Adderley (www.markadderley.net).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You make good point, Jeff.  I think, though, that the main problem with the higher education labor market is greed.  Essentially, our problem is that there are far more PhD graduates than there are jobs for them.  The reason there are so many PhD graduates is that they&#8217;ve been taken into departments primarily as cheap labor for the huge number of freshman classes universities offer.  The reason there are so many freshman classes is because universities have become indiscriminate about how many students they accept&#8211;they&#8217;re more interested in making large amounts of money than in accepting the right kind and number of students.</p>
<p>The only solution is to be much more careful about who you offer tenure to, if you have to offer tenure.  (In my experience, anyway, tenure is simply something that senior professors use to bully junior professors and get lazy about their teaching.)</p>
<p>I too have met many PhD&#8217;d professors who are incompetent teachers.  But all other things being equal, it&#8217;s surely better to hire a PhD than someone with a Master&#8217;s degree, just because the PhD involves an extra five years of education.  That has to be something we value!  The five years is just long enough to begin to get healthily cynical about higher education&#8211;notice how many folks drop out of their programs before they finish their dissertations.  It also confers a certain depth of knowledge&#8211;someone with only a Master&#8217;s level education is only two years ahead of the seniors s/he is teaching.</p>
<p>The lack of a doctorate is sometimes&#8211;not always&#8211;evidence that the professor lacked an interest in education, and simply wanted a job.  The Master&#8217;s degree was the minimum requirement.  I&#8217;ve had many colleagues who fell into that category.  I&#8217;m not altogether sure that sort of lack of initiative needs to be rewarded.</p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
Mark Adderley (www.markadderley.net).</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Polet</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/11/education-as-moral-formation-a-localist-proposal/#comment-23204</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Polet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 19:58:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7233#comment-23204</guid>
		<description>Cecelia,

I don&#039;t know how unrealistic it is. Look, for example, at the Labor Program at Berea College. Students receive full tuition scholarships in exchange for their participation, as well as a stipend.

http://www.berea.edu/laborprogram/about.asp</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cecelia,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know how unrealistic it is. Look, for example, at the Labor Program at Berea College. Students receive full tuition scholarships in exchange for their participation, as well as a stipend.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.berea.edu/laborprogram/about.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.berea.edu/laborprogram/about.asp</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Polet</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/11/education-as-moral-formation-a-localist-proposal/#comment-23127</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Polet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 19:37:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7233#comment-23127</guid>
		<description>Mark,

Thank you for your comments. I too have found that one of the advantages of teaching at a Christian liberal arts college is that you can be more explicit about what you are doing, and thus with more integrity. Part of the reason why Fish and Meilaender wrote what they did is because their colleagues are being very explicit, and not in a good way. It makes hash out of the idea of a UNIversity.

As to your second point, I would object to the way the labor market in higher education is currently operating. Assuming the market as is, your comments make sense: that is, if we want to have standardization and high degrees of mobility among the professorate. Even then, however, I think the way we hire is patently absurd. In essence, we are being asked to marry someone on the basis of one date. Someone might show up very well for that one or two day interview, but a couple of years later you could have a huge headache on your hands. For that reason, I would like the academic labor market to be reconstructed so that no one is offered a tenure-track position on the basis of one interview. I recognize that this would alter the incentive system, but then again if everyone does it no one school would be at a disadvantage. This would give schools more flexibility in determining the rightness of a person over a period of a couple of years. I can&#039;t think of any other labor market that does things as absurdly as the academy does, with the possible exception of the medical profession. But then again, soulcraft is both trickier and more important than care of the body.

Having been a full-time college/university teacher now for 18 years, I have seen enough people with doctorates who are incompetent to make me question the wisdom of the whole enterprise. I have been on enough searches to know that a) letters of recommendation are nearly worthless; and, b) in the pressure of having to make a decision with limited information, departments will often make decisions for very odd reasons. Since we know so little about their teaching abilities, their commitment to the school, or how they will handle tenure, we tend to hire them on other criteria, often arbitrary, with frequent bad results.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark,</p>
<p>Thank you for your comments. I too have found that one of the advantages of teaching at a Christian liberal arts college is that you can be more explicit about what you are doing, and thus with more integrity. Part of the reason why Fish and Meilaender wrote what they did is because their colleagues are being very explicit, and not in a good way. It makes hash out of the idea of a UNIversity.</p>
<p>As to your second point, I would object to the way the labor market in higher education is currently operating. Assuming the market as is, your comments make sense: that is, if we want to have standardization and high degrees of mobility among the professorate. Even then, however, I think the way we hire is patently absurd. In essence, we are being asked to marry someone on the basis of one date. Someone might show up very well for that one or two day interview, but a couple of years later you could have a huge headache on your hands. For that reason, I would like the academic labor market to be reconstructed so that no one is offered a tenure-track position on the basis of one interview. I recognize that this would alter the incentive system, but then again if everyone does it no one school would be at a disadvantage. This would give schools more flexibility in determining the rightness of a person over a period of a couple of years. I can&#8217;t think of any other labor market that does things as absurdly as the academy does, with the possible exception of the medical profession. But then again, soulcraft is both trickier and more important than care of the body.</p>
<p>Having been a full-time college/university teacher now for 18 years, I have seen enough people with doctorates who are incompetent to make me question the wisdom of the whole enterprise. I have been on enough searches to know that a) letters of recommendation are nearly worthless; and, b) in the pressure of having to make a decision with limited information, departments will often make decisions for very odd reasons. Since we know so little about their teaching abilities, their commitment to the school, or how they will handle tenure, we tend to hire them on other criteria, often arbitrary, with frequent bad results.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Adderley</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/11/education-as-moral-formation-a-localist-proposal/#comment-23122</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Adderley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 15:53:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7233#comment-23122</guid>
		<description>These are interesting comments.  Over the last sixteen years, I have taught mostly at public institutions, at one Presbyterian college of a mostly secular nature, and, my current institution, a conservative Catholic college.

I&#039;d observe, first, that it&#039;s virtually impossible to teach without conveying, usually quite subtly and often without your own knowledge, your moral values.  Stanley Fish teaches relativist moral values, but doesn&#039;t, I&#039;m sure, consider them to be moral values at all.  The thing I&#039;ve enjoyed most about teaching at a Catholic college is that I don&#039;t have to pretend I&#039;m not teaching with moral values.  I can, in other words, be honest.  More important than this, though, is the fact that my students don&#039;t have the impression that I&#039;m being completely impartial.  I don&#039;t give them the impression that I&#039;m morally neutral, so they don&#039;t have to decode that along with all the other matters they have to decode--the meaning of Dante and Chaucer and so forth.

I don&#039;t think there&#039;s any such thing as a morally neutral discourse.  It&#039;s nice to be able to quite pretending there is.

Second, on the matter of doctorates.  Obviously, the possession of a doctorate doesn&#039;t guarantee that its possessor is a gifted teacher.  However, the possession of a doctorate rather than simply a master&#039;s degree does guarantee a certain level of exposure to higher education--often breeding a certain healthy skepticism about the whole process--that is useful.  It&#039;s not perhaps useful in the classroom, but it is in the necessary &quot;backstage&quot; venues of committees, faculty meetings, and so forth.

One of the institutions at which I taught for several years had a habit of employing folks without doctorates.  Part of the reason for this was financial--you don&#039;t have to pay an MA as much as a PhD.  I think there&#039;s a real problem employing someone in an institution that supposedly holds education in high regard if the person has only one or two years&#039; more education than the institution&#039;s graduates.

I wouldn&#039;t exclude someone from employment on the mere basis of not holding a doctorate; but the MA would certainly have to demonstrate something so superior that it would make up for an additional five years of education.

Hiring is a matter that should be taken very seriously by all institutions and, unfortunately, it is now a buyer&#039;s market.  There are far more PhDs than jobs.  It&#039;s worth taking the time to find the right match--a person isn&#039;t going to be happy in his or her job, after all, if he or she isn&#039;t a good match.

Cheers,
Mark Adderley,
Wyoming Catholic College.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These are interesting comments.  Over the last sixteen years, I have taught mostly at public institutions, at one Presbyterian college of a mostly secular nature, and, my current institution, a conservative Catholic college.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d observe, first, that it&#8217;s virtually impossible to teach without conveying, usually quite subtly and often without your own knowledge, your moral values.  Stanley Fish teaches relativist moral values, but doesn&#8217;t, I&#8217;m sure, consider them to be moral values at all.  The thing I&#8217;ve enjoyed most about teaching at a Catholic college is that I don&#8217;t have to pretend I&#8217;m not teaching with moral values.  I can, in other words, be honest.  More important than this, though, is the fact that my students don&#8217;t have the impression that I&#8217;m being completely impartial.  I don&#8217;t give them the impression that I&#8217;m morally neutral, so they don&#8217;t have to decode that along with all the other matters they have to decode&#8211;the meaning of Dante and Chaucer and so forth.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s any such thing as a morally neutral discourse.  It&#8217;s nice to be able to quite pretending there is.</p>
<p>Second, on the matter of doctorates.  Obviously, the possession of a doctorate doesn&#8217;t guarantee that its possessor is a gifted teacher.  However, the possession of a doctorate rather than simply a master&#8217;s degree does guarantee a certain level of exposure to higher education&#8211;often breeding a certain healthy skepticism about the whole process&#8211;that is useful.  It&#8217;s not perhaps useful in the classroom, but it is in the necessary &#8220;backstage&#8221; venues of committees, faculty meetings, and so forth.</p>
<p>One of the institutions at which I taught for several years had a habit of employing folks without doctorates.  Part of the reason for this was financial&#8211;you don&#8217;t have to pay an MA as much as a PhD.  I think there&#8217;s a real problem employing someone in an institution that supposedly holds education in high regard if the person has only one or two years&#8217; more education than the institution&#8217;s graduates.</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t exclude someone from employment on the mere basis of not holding a doctorate; but the MA would certainly have to demonstrate something so superior that it would make up for an additional five years of education.</p>
<p>Hiring is a matter that should be taken very seriously by all institutions and, unfortunately, it is now a buyer&#8217;s market.  There are far more PhDs than jobs.  It&#8217;s worth taking the time to find the right match&#8211;a person isn&#8217;t going to be happy in his or her job, after all, if he or she isn&#8217;t a good match.</p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
Mark Adderley,<br />
Wyoming Catholic College.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Polet</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/11/education-as-moral-formation-a-localist-proposal/#comment-23088</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Polet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 14:25:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7233#comment-23088</guid>
		<description>Thank you for your comments. I think the single largest objection I have received to this posting concerns the malleability of the mind of the average college-age student. Obviously education assumes some level of plasticity, but how this relates exactly to the formation of character is not totally clear to me. I don&#039;t know for sure the answer to these things. I do suspect that for many of us we fear are students are too malleable when it comes to a certain kind of instruction or indoctrination, and not enough when it comes to another. That, of course, is part of the problem: there are too many of my colleagues I simply don&#039;t trust.

I recently had a conversation with a graduating senior who told me that her English major matched seamlessly to her Political Science major for in the former they were always reading literature that dealt with political and social issues. This comment depressed me immensely, and not only because (with apologies to Wilson and Peters) most English professors sound like idiots when they talk about politics, but also because students aren&#039;t learning to appreciate literature as literature.

Such politicizing of all subjects reflects an absence of prudence and fidelity, virtues related to a good education. For this reason, Fish and Schroeder are right when they point out that professors ought to teach a discipline of inquiry and that education becomes dull when they politicize or indoctrinate. I don&#039;t think anything in my essay gainsays this claim. Moral formation occurs in the nooks and crannies of education. For example, if I have the students reading Marx, I have an obligation to teach the text employing the virtues of generosity (what&#039;s the best possible argument for the claim Marx is making here?), charity, honesty, and so forth, while at the same time locating such arguments within a larger understanding of what is good and true. These issues are not settled with reference to technique, but are enacted prudentially but those who know their stuff, but can communicate such knowledge in terms of the good life. Modeling would become decisive in this regard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for your comments. I think the single largest objection I have received to this posting concerns the malleability of the mind of the average college-age student. Obviously education assumes some level of plasticity, but how this relates exactly to the formation of character is not totally clear to me. I don&#8217;t know for sure the answer to these things. I do suspect that for many of us we fear are students are too malleable when it comes to a certain kind of instruction or indoctrination, and not enough when it comes to another. That, of course, is part of the problem: there are too many of my colleagues I simply don&#8217;t trust.</p>
<p>I recently had a conversation with a graduating senior who told me that her English major matched seamlessly to her Political Science major for in the former they were always reading literature that dealt with political and social issues. This comment depressed me immensely, and not only because (with apologies to Wilson and Peters) most English professors sound like idiots when they talk about politics, but also because students aren&#8217;t learning to appreciate literature as literature.</p>
<p>Such politicizing of all subjects reflects an absence of prudence and fidelity, virtues related to a good education. For this reason, Fish and Schroeder are right when they point out that professors ought to teach a discipline of inquiry and that education becomes dull when they politicize or indoctrinate. I don&#8217;t think anything in my essay gainsays this claim. Moral formation occurs in the nooks and crannies of education. For example, if I have the students reading Marx, I have an obligation to teach the text employing the virtues of generosity (what&#8217;s the best possible argument for the claim Marx is making here?), charity, honesty, and so forth, while at the same time locating such arguments within a larger understanding of what is good and true. These issues are not settled with reference to technique, but are enacted prudentially but those who know their stuff, but can communicate such knowledge in terms of the good life. Modeling would become decisive in this regard.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Schroeder</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/11/education-as-moral-formation-a-localist-proposal/#comment-22980</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Schroeder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7233#comment-22980</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know whether I disagree with anything in this post, but I&#039;m just having a hard time squaring the urgency of your suggestions with my experience in college.

As a newly minted college grad from a small school where a degree of moralizing made its way into the classroom, when I read Fish&#039;s &lt;em&gt; Save the World on Your Own Time &lt;/em&gt; last summer, I found that the professors who did the most work in making me think about the life of virtue were the ones who fit Fish&#039;s mold of good professorship. They were, by and large, good teachers of American Literature, English Romantic Poetry, Modern Philosophy and Philosophy of Language--that is, of the disciplines they were trained in.  They published with some frequency &lt;em&gt; interesting &lt;/em&gt; not overly-technical or overly-specialized work in subfields in those disciplines.  And by and large, it was the material they taught me that led to a kind of moral education, rather than the sort of personal relationships and one-on-one attention you mention here--though such have been quite meaningful, as well.

I guess I&#039;d like to hear from others: am I alone in experiencing this phenomenon?  That is, were the professors who most inspired you to some kind of attention to the moral life (if they did at all) ones who &#039;attended intentionally to your moral development&#039; or were they the ones who, in many ways, &lt;em&gt; exemplified &lt;/em&gt; that moral life through work they did as conduits for and contributors to a largely disciplinary body of knowledge?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know whether I disagree with anything in this post, but I&#8217;m just having a hard time squaring the urgency of your suggestions with my experience in college.</p>
<p>As a newly minted college grad from a small school where a degree of moralizing made its way into the classroom, when I read Fish&#8217;s <em> Save the World on Your Own Time </em> last summer, I found that the professors who did the most work in making me think about the life of virtue were the ones who fit Fish&#8217;s mold of good professorship. They were, by and large, good teachers of American Literature, English Romantic Poetry, Modern Philosophy and Philosophy of Language&#8211;that is, of the disciplines they were trained in.  They published with some frequency <em> interesting </em> not overly-technical or overly-specialized work in subfields in those disciplines.  And by and large, it was the material they taught me that led to a kind of moral education, rather than the sort of personal relationships and one-on-one attention you mention here&#8211;though such have been quite meaningful, as well.</p>
<p>I guess I&#8217;d like to hear from others: am I alone in experiencing this phenomenon?  That is, were the professors who most inspired you to some kind of attention to the moral life (if they did at all) ones who &#8216;attended intentionally to your moral development&#8217; or were they the ones who, in many ways, <em> exemplified </em> that moral life through work they did as conduits for and contributors to a largely disciplinary body of knowledge?</p>
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		<title>By: Should Universities Engage In Forming The Character Of Their Students? &#171; Democratic Thinker</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/11/education-as-moral-formation-a-localist-proposal/#comment-22894</link>
		<dc:creator>Should Universities Engage In Forming The Character Of Their Students? &#171; Democratic Thinker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 01:58:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7233#comment-22894</guid>
		<description>[...] Education as Moral Formation: A Localist Proposal By Jeffrey Polet21 November 2009Comments   Holland, MI. I heard many fine presentations at Notre Dame’s Center for the Study of Ethics and Culture from November 12-14, and one in particular that piqued my interest was delivered by Shawn Floyd of Malone University. Floyd addressed the issue of character formation in higher education, offering his paper up as a rebuttal to the likes of Stanley Fish and Gilbert Meilaender, both of whom offer variations of the argument that universities neither can nor should engage in the practice of forming the moral character of their students.  The argument against character formation can be summed up as follows: there are no pedagogical means available to accomplish such formation, and no evaluative means by which we could know if we have done so successfully. For Fish (Save the World on Your Own Time), making the attempt to engage in moral formation only distracts us from the job at hand, simply developing a student’s analytical skills and introducing her to a tradition of inquiry. Attempting to do more than this brings us too much into the realms of indeterminacy and contingency. Meilaender’s argument (made in the November 2008 issue of First Things) brings liberal solutions to academic problems. Given the pervasive levels of disagreement among university professors, and the concomitant problems of distrust, professors should agree not to make experiments out of one another’s children. As a father with two children in college, I confess to having great sympathy for this point of view. I’ll agree not to try to form the character of your kids if you agree not to do it to mine. All bets are off if, like Martha Nussbaum, we consider education to be essentially an act of patricide. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Education as Moral Formation: A Localist Proposal By Jeffrey Polet21 November 2009Comments   Holland, MI. I heard many fine presentations at Notre Dame’s Center for the Study of Ethics and Culture from November 12-14, and one in particular that piqued my interest was delivered by Shawn Floyd of Malone University. Floyd addressed the issue of character formation in higher education, offering his paper up as a rebuttal to the likes of Stanley Fish and Gilbert Meilaender, both of whom offer variations of the argument that universities neither can nor should engage in the practice of forming the moral character of their students.  The argument against character formation can be summed up as follows: there are no pedagogical means available to accomplish such formation, and no evaluative means by which we could know if we have done so successfully. For Fish (Save the World on Your Own Time), making the attempt to engage in moral formation only distracts us from the job at hand, simply developing a student’s analytical skills and introducing her to a tradition of inquiry. Attempting to do more than this brings us too much into the realms of indeterminacy and contingency. Meilaender’s argument (made in the November 2008 issue of First Things) brings liberal solutions to academic problems. Given the pervasive levels of disagreement among university professors, and the concomitant problems of distrust, professors should agree not to make experiments out of one another’s children. As a father with two children in college, I confess to having great sympathy for this point of view. I’ll agree not to try to form the character of your kids if you agree not to do it to mine. All bets are off if, like Martha Nussbaum, we consider education to be essentially an act of patricide. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: amazona</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/11/education-as-moral-formation-a-localist-proposal/#comment-22891</link>
		<dc:creator>amazona</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 22:30:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7233#comment-22891</guid>
		<description>Amen! I totally agree with you. As an older graduated student and a parent I think you hit it right on the head. Where is this college you are describing, can I get a job there when I finish my Phd?

A string of thoughts:

Character formation happens in the early years. 
You can&#039;t trust the professorship with your children&#039;s moral education. 
They don&#039;t even know what they believe in most cases. 
There is no way to go back to the past.

Small is beautiful!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen! I totally agree with you. As an older graduated student and a parent I think you hit it right on the head. Where is this college you are describing, can I get a job there when I finish my Phd?</p>
<p>A string of thoughts:</p>
<p>Character formation happens in the early years.<br />
You can&#8217;t trust the professorship with your children&#8217;s moral education.<br />
They don&#8217;t even know what they believe in most cases.<br />
There is no way to go back to the past.</p>
<p>Small is beautiful!</p>
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		<title>By: Siarlys Jenkins</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/11/education-as-moral-formation-a-localist-proposal/#comment-22890</link>
		<dc:creator>Siarlys Jenkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 21:04:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7233#comment-22890</guid>
		<description>Dtenny: learn how to spell, and how to write a sentence in the English language. When you have mastered these basics, you may be able to communicated intelligently on the subject of morals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dtenny: learn how to spell, and how to write a sentence in the English language. When you have mastered these basics, you may be able to communicated intelligently on the subject of morals.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard H</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/11/education-as-moral-formation-a-localist-proposal/#comment-22886</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 16:12:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7233#comment-22886</guid>
		<description>I see a couple of things that would constitute clear improvements over our current way of doing things.
1. We drop the myth that we can avoid moral education in higher education (whether that education be introductory, enhancing, undermining, etc.).
2. Having recognized that there is a moral dimension in all education, we have or develop institutions that are clear about their moral enterprise. As a parent (or student, or educator), I could then lean toward an institution that represented the same moral tradition in which I considered myself a participant.

This would allow for great diversity - more than we have now - while enhancing honesty. I do agree with you, that such institutions will likely be much smaller than what we now have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see a couple of things that would constitute clear improvements over our current way of doing things.<br />
1. We drop the myth that we can avoid moral education in higher education (whether that education be introductory, enhancing, undermining, etc.).<br />
2. Having recognized that there is a moral dimension in all education, we have or develop institutions that are clear about their moral enterprise. As a parent (or student, or educator), I could then lean toward an institution that represented the same moral tradition in which I considered myself a participant.</p>
<p>This would allow for great diversity &#8211; more than we have now &#8211; while enhancing honesty. I do agree with you, that such institutions will likely be much smaller than what we now have.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/11/education-as-moral-formation-a-localist-proposal/#comment-22881</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 13:47:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7233#comment-22881</guid>
		<description>It is always going to be the case that the young will want to receive guidance on how they should perceive their lives. The popularity amongst students of Michael Sandel’s “Justice” lectures at Harvard University is indicative of this. Central to this perception has to be the nature of human beings and the nature of money because both historically have caused great conflict. We now know from concentrated effort from a wide variety of different disciplines over the last twenty years that human beings although subject to tension between self-concern and other-concern are at the end of the day primarily focused on social cohesion because the species flourishes better through cooperation. Money, however, seems to have a life of its own that seems to demand self-concerned freedom. It wants to go like ether, or quicksilver, where there is a capital investment need and where profit can be maximized, China being a good example. Indeed we seem to now have a situation where money has gone “virtual” to create “casino capitalism” and piggy-backs on real need in order to concentrate on maximizing profit, hedge funds being a good example. It is the understanding that many of the world’s problems result from the tension between the hard-wired desire for social cohesion and freedom to profit that young people need to know. They also need to know the implications for the viability of the planet. Only after understanding these things does it then becomes possible to see that human lives can best be lived by trying to reconcile human nature and money, to attempt to channel the use of money for the purposes of social cohesion and sustainability of planetary and human life.Our morals and religions stem from these concerns and all in the end concerned with dealing with entropy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is always going to be the case that the young will want to receive guidance on how they should perceive their lives. The popularity amongst students of Michael Sandel’s “Justice” lectures at Harvard University is indicative of this. Central to this perception has to be the nature of human beings and the nature of money because both historically have caused great conflict. We now know from concentrated effort from a wide variety of different disciplines over the last twenty years that human beings although subject to tension between self-concern and other-concern are at the end of the day primarily focused on social cohesion because the species flourishes better through cooperation. Money, however, seems to have a life of its own that seems to demand self-concerned freedom. It wants to go like ether, or quicksilver, where there is a capital investment need and where profit can be maximized, China being a good example. Indeed we seem to now have a situation where money has gone “virtual” to create “casino capitalism” and piggy-backs on real need in order to concentrate on maximizing profit, hedge funds being a good example. It is the understanding that many of the world’s problems result from the tension between the hard-wired desire for social cohesion and freedom to profit that young people need to know. They also need to know the implications for the viability of the planet. Only after understanding these things does it then becomes possible to see that human lives can best be lived by trying to reconcile human nature and money, to attempt to channel the use of money for the purposes of social cohesion and sustainability of planetary and human life.Our morals and religions stem from these concerns and all in the end concerned with dealing with entropy.</p>
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		<title>By: Dtenny</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/11/education-as-moral-formation-a-localist-proposal/#comment-22855</link>
		<dc:creator>Dtenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 04:57:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7233#comment-22855</guid>
		<description>Siarlys,
What does it matter? And I said nothing about &quot;no morals at all in politics&quot;  Don&#039;t upset youself about a pamplet you read, that I found objectional language in. Unless it was you opinion and the finding of pamplet made the story flow better.

I have objection for someone who think that professors should be responsible for teaching a student what moriality they think should be best for this/that community.
In reading the essay and comments I invision a maze, some rats and cheese. 
 I am certian there already exist consiquences for a person who lies, steals cheats or plagiarizes. Is that not sufficient? That you want to use a &quot;deft touch&quot; to bring them to the correct moral conduct is mildly Owellian.
College&#039;s cannot make utopias by redefining, however subltey, the morality of its students. A few students will, lie, steal, or cheat no matter what type of university thet be found in. You want to make cog&#039;s, not educated adults ready for the real world.

leave the moral lessons up to thier parents and religion.
Dtenny</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Siarlys,<br />
What does it matter? And I said nothing about &#8220;no morals at all in politics&#8221;  Don&#8217;t upset youself about a pamplet you read, that I found objectional language in. Unless it was you opinion and the finding of pamplet made the story flow better.</p>
<p>I have objection for someone who think that professors should be responsible for teaching a student what moriality they think should be best for this/that community.<br />
In reading the essay and comments I invision a maze, some rats and cheese.<br />
 I am certian there already exist consiquences for a person who lies, steals cheats or plagiarizes. Is that not sufficient? That you want to use a &#8220;deft touch&#8221; to bring them to the correct moral conduct is mildly Owellian.<br />
College&#8217;s cannot make utopias by redefining, however subltey, the morality of its students. A few students will, lie, steal, or cheat no matter what type of university thet be found in. You want to make cog&#8217;s, not educated adults ready for the real world.</p>
<p>leave the moral lessons up to thier parents and religion.<br />
Dtenny</p>
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		<title>By: Siarlys Jenkins</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/11/education-as-moral-formation-a-localist-proposal/#comment-22854</link>
		<dc:creator>Siarlys Jenkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 03:37:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7233#comment-22854</guid>
		<description>Darn, I can&#039;t tell if Dtenny is a flaming liberal or a homeschooling conservative. Morals can never be DEFINED by politics, but we all suffer if there are NO morals at all IN politics. Why shouldn&#039;t George Washington Plunkett &quot;seen my chances and I took them&quot;? Why shouldn&#039;t a student cheat on a test or plagiarize? They are adults after all, it is not the place for educators to impose their morality on students! There has to be a deft touch here, and many have gotten it wrong. The key point is, what weave of morals does THIS community need in order to survive, function, thrive, and be of service to its participants? And that will vary from one college to another. It should. With a sufficient marketplace of choices, parents can find, or free 18 year old adults who don&#039;t care what their parents want can find, a community suited to their aspirations, shaped by 17 years of growing up under parental supervision.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darn, I can&#8217;t tell if Dtenny is a flaming liberal or a homeschooling conservative. Morals can never be DEFINED by politics, but we all suffer if there are NO morals at all IN politics. Why shouldn&#8217;t George Washington Plunkett &#8220;seen my chances and I took them&#8221;? Why shouldn&#8217;t a student cheat on a test or plagiarize? They are adults after all, it is not the place for educators to impose their morality on students! There has to be a deft touch here, and many have gotten it wrong. The key point is, what weave of morals does THIS community need in order to survive, function, thrive, and be of service to its participants? And that will vary from one college to another. It should. With a sufficient marketplace of choices, parents can find, or free 18 year old adults who don&#8217;t care what their parents want can find, a community suited to their aspirations, shaped by 17 years of growing up under parental supervision.</p>
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