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	<title>Comments on: What Does it Declare?</title>
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		<title>By: CJ Foley</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/12/what-does-it-declare/#comment-25254</link>
		<dc:creator>CJ Foley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jan 2010 07:52:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Frank Smith wrote a thorough defense of one of the threads of reformation theology, that Jesus calls for human reconciliation with God didn&#039;t happen until the 1500s.  AND that if that call were heard today, all evil would vanish overnight.  I applaud his faith.  As one of the unworthy catholics, I invite him to the parlor of our American house to discuss the issues he raises from his pulpit.  we can have coffee, or plain water if that&#039;s too intoxicating while we try to focus on Jesus&#039; message.  However, we&#039;d probably have to cut it short, since the American house is on fire with the pervasive cultural acceptance of anti-Christian moralities, government adoption of evil moral structures, and the leitmotif of sin in human beings.    WE should have 2 themes for our discussion.  The first, assigned to you, is &quot;Ain&#039;t it awful but if Calvin was around today, all would be well&quot;.  The second I assign to me &quot;so we&#039;re all broken, how do we help our children be less broken in our present moral cultural calamity.  What do we do today?&quot;.  I look forward to our talks, since you have the answers.  But i&#039;m coming in firemans garb.   So, in context, what&#039;s wrong with the manhattan declaration, aside from it&#039;s authorship and that benighted folks signed onto it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frank Smith wrote a thorough defense of one of the threads of reformation theology, that Jesus calls for human reconciliation with God didn&#8217;t happen until the 1500s.  AND that if that call were heard today, all evil would vanish overnight.  I applaud his faith.  As one of the unworthy catholics, I invite him to the parlor of our American house to discuss the issues he raises from his pulpit.  we can have coffee, or plain water if that&#8217;s too intoxicating while we try to focus on Jesus&#8217; message.  However, we&#8217;d probably have to cut it short, since the American house is on fire with the pervasive cultural acceptance of anti-Christian moralities, government adoption of evil moral structures, and the leitmotif of sin in human beings.    WE should have 2 themes for our discussion.  The first, assigned to you, is &#8220;Ain&#8217;t it awful but if Calvin was around today, all would be well&#8221;.  The second I assign to me &#8220;so we&#8217;re all broken, how do we help our children be less broken in our present moral cultural calamity.  What do we do today?&#8221;.  I look forward to our talks, since you have the answers.  But i&#8217;m coming in firemans garb.   So, in context, what&#8217;s wrong with the manhattan declaration, aside from it&#8217;s authorship and that benighted folks signed onto it?</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Frank J. Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/12/what-does-it-declare/#comment-25079</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Frank J. Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jan 2010 04:48:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7488#comment-25079</guid>
		<description>The readers of this blog may be interested in what I wrote for &quot;From the Pastor&#039;s Desk&quot; for our congregation, North Atlanta Reformed Presbyterian Church (www.atlanta-rpc.org):

In November 2009, a group of evangelical, Roman Catholic, and Orthodox leaders released a document, the Manhattan Declaration, which expresses concern with regard to abortion, the homosexual movement, and religious freedom.  Signed initially by about 140 leaders, it has now been signed by many thousands of people.

Despite much with which traditional Protestants might agree in this statement, I find myself having to decline from joining the other signatories.  For this document promotes an ecumenism that would no longer distinguish between the genuine Biblical faith (as represented by historic Protestantism) and damnable heresies (such as the official teachings of the Roman Catholic Church).

Now, let me be clear —- I am dead set opposed to abortion and the homosexual agenda, and am concerned about the increasing threats to our ability to preach and promote a Christian world-view.  (Those interested may want to check out a couple of my articles, “Equal Rights for Homosexuals!” and “Luther Must Be Spinning in His Grave”, in the “From the Pastor’s Desk” section of our congregation’s website.)

However, there is something even more important than these issues, and it is the true gospel of Jesus Christ.  I don’t think that the Apostle Paul would have regarded the Judaizers of his day, who were trying to subvert the Galatian church, as being genuine Christians.  Nor should we regard those who anathametize Protestant teaching on justification by faith alone as being genuine Christians.  Paul is clear: “If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:9).

In the early 1980s, at the Westchester County (N.Y.) courthouse in White Plains, I helped lead an anti-abortion rally that featured both Roman Catholics and evangelicals.  In helping to co-ordinate that event, and in drafting a statement signed by more than 50 evangelical leaders in our county, I was careful not to give the impression that the two groups were doing anything other than sharing the same platform in order to address, from each group’s perspective, a pressing moral and social issue.  I was following the pattern of the late Francis Schaeffer, who wrote that Christians may be able to advocate similar positions with those who are opposed to them on the basis of “co-belligerency”, but not on the basis of an alliance.  (For Schaeffer, Scripture and gospel were the twin issues that defined the divide between faithful confession and faithless denial.)  But the evangelicals —- including a number of high-profile Calvinists -— who signed the Manhattan Declaration, by placing their signatures on this document along with Roman Catholics and those of an Orthodox persuasion, have given the impression that evangelicals and Catholics and Orthodox really are together.

It is easy to understand why a document such as this Declaration, with its clarion call for morality and accountability and courage, could appear to be such a welcome development.  Nevertheless, it does not change the fact that this document not only is deficient, but also insidious -— it threatens to entrap people by confusing them as to what the fundamental issue is, viz., the gospel itself founded on the doctrine of sola scriptura.

At best, this document is a band-aid which will not cut out and extirpate the cancer of our culture.  Only the gospel -— that is, the true gospel, not some seeming replica with which Roman Catholic apologists can agree—will avail.  The need, as always, is for a consistent adherence to and proclamation of that gospel.  And preaching the truth necessarily entails pointing out the soul-destroying errors of systems such as Romanism which deny the truth as it is in Jesus.

Sincerely,
Frank J. Smith, Ph.D., D.D.
Stated Supply, North Atlanta Reformed Presbyterian Church (RPCNA)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The readers of this blog may be interested in what I wrote for &#8220;From the Pastor&#8217;s Desk&#8221; for our congregation, North Atlanta Reformed Presbyterian Church (www.atlanta-rpc.org):</p>
<p>In November 2009, a group of evangelical, Roman Catholic, and Orthodox leaders released a document, the Manhattan Declaration, which expresses concern with regard to abortion, the homosexual movement, and religious freedom.  Signed initially by about 140 leaders, it has now been signed by many thousands of people.</p>
<p>Despite much with which traditional Protestants might agree in this statement, I find myself having to decline from joining the other signatories.  For this document promotes an ecumenism that would no longer distinguish between the genuine Biblical faith (as represented by historic Protestantism) and damnable heresies (such as the official teachings of the Roman Catholic Church).</p>
<p>Now, let me be clear —- I am dead set opposed to abortion and the homosexual agenda, and am concerned about the increasing threats to our ability to preach and promote a Christian world-view.  (Those interested may want to check out a couple of my articles, “Equal Rights for Homosexuals!” and “Luther Must Be Spinning in His Grave”, in the “From the Pastor’s Desk” section of our congregation’s website.)</p>
<p>However, there is something even more important than these issues, and it is the true gospel of Jesus Christ.  I don’t think that the Apostle Paul would have regarded the Judaizers of his day, who were trying to subvert the Galatian church, as being genuine Christians.  Nor should we regard those who anathametize Protestant teaching on justification by faith alone as being genuine Christians.  Paul is clear: “If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:9).</p>
<p>In the early 1980s, at the Westchester County (N.Y.) courthouse in White Plains, I helped lead an anti-abortion rally that featured both Roman Catholics and evangelicals.  In helping to co-ordinate that event, and in drafting a statement signed by more than 50 evangelical leaders in our county, I was careful not to give the impression that the two groups were doing anything other than sharing the same platform in order to address, from each group’s perspective, a pressing moral and social issue.  I was following the pattern of the late Francis Schaeffer, who wrote that Christians may be able to advocate similar positions with those who are opposed to them on the basis of “co-belligerency”, but not on the basis of an alliance.  (For Schaeffer, Scripture and gospel were the twin issues that defined the divide between faithful confession and faithless denial.)  But the evangelicals —- including a number of high-profile Calvinists -— who signed the Manhattan Declaration, by placing their signatures on this document along with Roman Catholics and those of an Orthodox persuasion, have given the impression that evangelicals and Catholics and Orthodox really are together.</p>
<p>It is easy to understand why a document such as this Declaration, with its clarion call for morality and accountability and courage, could appear to be such a welcome development.  Nevertheless, it does not change the fact that this document not only is deficient, but also insidious -— it threatens to entrap people by confusing them as to what the fundamental issue is, viz., the gospel itself founded on the doctrine of sola scriptura.</p>
<p>At best, this document is a band-aid which will not cut out and extirpate the cancer of our culture.  Only the gospel -— that is, the true gospel, not some seeming replica with which Roman Catholic apologists can agree—will avail.  The need, as always, is for a consistent adherence to and proclamation of that gospel.  And preaching the truth necessarily entails pointing out the soul-destroying errors of systems such as Romanism which deny the truth as it is in Jesus.</p>
<p>Sincerely,<br />
Frank J. Smith, Ph.D., D.D.<br />
Stated Supply, North Atlanta Reformed Presbyterian Church (RPCNA)</p>
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		<title>By: Jordan</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/12/what-does-it-declare/#comment-24251</link>
		<dc:creator>Jordan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Dec 2009 07:10:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7488#comment-24251</guid>
		<description>Mr. Hart, 
 
I realize that this is not quite relevant to the discussion at hand, but I&#039;m working through your required reading for your upcoming class at Westminster Seminary California on &quot;Machen and Modernism.&quot;  Your understanding of Machen and his understanding of &#039;Christ and Culture&#039; were magnificent, par excellance.  It was interesting reading it during this entire MD debacle, with such a grand confusion of the kingdoms, social activism dwarfing doctrinal precision and particularity, all done in the name of &quot;the gospel.&quot;  There truly is nothing new under the sun.  Your analysis is much appreciated, and I&#039;m looking forward to your class in January.

Jordan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Hart, </p>
<p>I realize that this is not quite relevant to the discussion at hand, but I&#8217;m working through your required reading for your upcoming class at Westminster Seminary California on &#8220;Machen and Modernism.&#8221;  Your understanding of Machen and his understanding of &#8216;Christ and Culture&#8217; were magnificent, par excellance.  It was interesting reading it during this entire MD debacle, with such a grand confusion of the kingdoms, social activism dwarfing doctrinal precision and particularity, all done in the name of &#8220;the gospel.&#8221;  There truly is nothing new under the sun.  Your analysis is much appreciated, and I&#8217;m looking forward to your class in January.</p>
<p>Jordan</p>
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		<title>By: dgh</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/12/what-does-it-declare/#comment-24173</link>
		<dc:creator>dgh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 16:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7488#comment-24173</guid>
		<description>Truth Unites: glad to know you regard the efforts of Christ and the apostles were legitimate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Truth Unites: glad to know you regard the efforts of Christ and the apostles were legitimate.</p>
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		<title>By: Truth Unites... and Divides</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/12/what-does-it-declare/#comment-24136</link>
		<dc:creator>Truth Unites... and Divides</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:02:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7488#comment-24136</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;DGH&lt;/b&gt;:  &lt;i&gt;&quot;Truth, I didn’t say in this post that the Declaration commits signers to a shared understanding of the way of salvation.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

I didn&#039;t say you did.  I just excerpted a part of Dr. Nielson&#039;s article.

&quot;Jon and Truth Unites, by your reasoning how do you understand the efforts of Christ and the apostles? They didn’t seem to leave much of a trail of affirmations or social reform. Couldn’t you at least make room for their approach as legitimate? (Please remember, their society was more hostile to Christians than ours.)&quot;

DGH, I&#039;ll reply in the same manner as you:  &quot;DGH, I didn&#039;t say that the efforts of Christ and the apostles were illegitimate.&quot;

I.e., that&#039;s a false imputation.  And false imputations are not conducive to productive and fruitful discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>DGH</b>:  <i>&#8220;Truth, I didn’t say in this post that the Declaration commits signers to a shared understanding of the way of salvation.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t say you did.  I just excerpted a part of Dr. Nielson&#8217;s article.</p>
<p>&#8220;Jon and Truth Unites, by your reasoning how do you understand the efforts of Christ and the apostles? They didn’t seem to leave much of a trail of affirmations or social reform. Couldn’t you at least make room for their approach as legitimate? (Please remember, their society was more hostile to Christians than ours.)&#8221;</p>
<p>DGH, I&#8217;ll reply in the same manner as you:  &#8220;DGH, I didn&#8217;t say that the efforts of Christ and the apostles were illegitimate.&#8221;</p>
<p>I.e., that&#8217;s a false imputation.  And false imputations are not conducive to productive and fruitful discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/12/what-does-it-declare/#comment-24111</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 03:05:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7488#comment-24111</guid>
		<description>Darryl, I&#039;ll try to avoid a lengthy reply and so will necessarily miss some aspects, I&#039;m sure we could launch into a lengthy discussion on this topic. Certainly Christ and the apostles did not focus on social reform per se, and certainly much social reform hinges on reforming individuals&#039; hearts. But I don&#039;t think we can directly compare or use Christ&#039;s individual mission or the apostles&#039; missions with our own. Certainly there are many individuals in the Bible with different missions than Christ and the apostles, and many involved influencing government and/or society: Joseph, Daniel, Esther, Jeremiah, Solomon, and many others. In Christ&#039;s time one did not have any right to directly challenge societal norms or government policies, so that kind of behavior didn&#039;t fall into a person&#039;s &quot;sphere of influence&quot;. And in apostolic times the most important and immediate focus was establishing the Church. Like it or not, our &quot;sphere of influence&quot; in a democratic society with a free press includes a voice on society and government. If we leave that voice only to those who oppose or are even ambivalent to ideas we think are best for society, we&#039;ve simply abandoned part of our ability to be salt and light. I&#039;m not saying we all MUST use that voice -- some may be called to purely spiritual missions, others to secular missions, just as throughout history (Jesus didn&#039;t tell the centurion, incidentally the one with the greatest faith in all Israel, to quit being a centurion). But I do think that the Church should use what capabilities it has here on earth to exert influence (Paul was very quick to use his secular status -- a Roman citizen -- for his missional purposes), while not abandoning its central purpose: &quot;go and make disciples of all men&quot;.

BTW, I love FPR and wish I had time to read more of it...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darryl, I&#8217;ll try to avoid a lengthy reply and so will necessarily miss some aspects, I&#8217;m sure we could launch into a lengthy discussion on this topic. Certainly Christ and the apostles did not focus on social reform per se, and certainly much social reform hinges on reforming individuals&#8217; hearts. But I don&#8217;t think we can directly compare or use Christ&#8217;s individual mission or the apostles&#8217; missions with our own. Certainly there are many individuals in the Bible with different missions than Christ and the apostles, and many involved influencing government and/or society: Joseph, Daniel, Esther, Jeremiah, Solomon, and many others. In Christ&#8217;s time one did not have any right to directly challenge societal norms or government policies, so that kind of behavior didn&#8217;t fall into a person&#8217;s &#8220;sphere of influence&#8221;. And in apostolic times the most important and immediate focus was establishing the Church. Like it or not, our &#8220;sphere of influence&#8221; in a democratic society with a free press includes a voice on society and government. If we leave that voice only to those who oppose or are even ambivalent to ideas we think are best for society, we&#8217;ve simply abandoned part of our ability to be salt and light. I&#8217;m not saying we all MUST use that voice &#8212; some may be called to purely spiritual missions, others to secular missions, just as throughout history (Jesus didn&#8217;t tell the centurion, incidentally the one with the greatest faith in all Israel, to quit being a centurion). But I do think that the Church should use what capabilities it has here on earth to exert influence (Paul was very quick to use his secular status &#8212; a Roman citizen &#8212; for his missional purposes), while not abandoning its central purpose: &#8220;go and make disciples of all men&#8221;.</p>
<p>BTW, I love FPR and wish I had time to read more of it&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: dgh</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/12/what-does-it-declare/#comment-24095</link>
		<dc:creator>dgh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 19:25:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7488#comment-24095</guid>
		<description>Jon and Truth Unites, by your reasoning how do you understand the efforts of Christ and the apostles?  They didn&#039;t seem to leave much of a trail of affirmations or social reform.  Couldn&#039;t you at least make room for their approach as legitimate?  (Please remember, their society was more hostile to Christians than ours.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon and Truth Unites, by your reasoning how do you understand the efforts of Christ and the apostles?  They didn&#8217;t seem to leave much of a trail of affirmations or social reform.  Couldn&#8217;t you at least make room for their approach as legitimate?  (Please remember, their society was more hostile to Christians than ours.)</p>
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		<title>By: Truth Unites... and Divides</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/12/what-does-it-declare/#comment-24091</link>
		<dc:creator>Truth Unites... and Divides</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 18:29:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7488#comment-24091</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Jon&lt;/b&gt;:  &lt;i&gt;&quot;Christians are not called just to another world but to influence, preserve, and light up the world around them. This should not be their _only_ goal, but it is something we do. If we believe that directions our country or world are heading are detrimental, we should speak up. That’s what the MD does. I signed it.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Good man, Jon.  Al Mohler, Ligon Duncan, and Niel Nielson, all signed the Manhattan Declaration because they wanted to speak up too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Jon</b>:  <i>&#8220;Christians are not called just to another world but to influence, preserve, and light up the world around them. This should not be their _only_ goal, but it is something we do. If we believe that directions our country or world are heading are detrimental, we should speak up. That’s what the MD does. I signed it.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Good man, Jon.  Al Mohler, Ligon Duncan, and Niel Nielson, all signed the Manhattan Declaration because they wanted to speak up too.</p>
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		<title>By: Zrim</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/12/what-does-it-declare/#comment-24085</link>
		<dc:creator>Zrim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 17:21:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7488#comment-24085</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Christians are not called just to another world but to influence, preserve, and light up the world around them.&lt;/i&gt;

The appeal to salt and light seems to distinguish the two outlooks. One says that there is “being called to another world AND lighting up this one” as if these is some sort of disconnect between these things. The other is more organic and says that there is “lighting up this world BY calling it to another one.”  The former outlook doesn’t seem to take into account that if both un/believers can do whatever “lighting up this world” seems to mean then there is nothing distinctively Christian about it. But only Christians, by the narrow definition of the gospel, can point the temporal world to the eternal one. 

Life and marriage are common and temporal goods that everyone can affirm, but they pale in comparison to eternal life. Or does anyone imagine that Christ’s call to hate our temporal lives and marriages and lay them down as a prerequisite to eternal life means something else?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Christians are not called just to another world but to influence, preserve, and light up the world around them.</i></p>
<p>The appeal to salt and light seems to distinguish the two outlooks. One says that there is “being called to another world AND lighting up this one” as if these is some sort of disconnect between these things. The other is more organic and says that there is “lighting up this world BY calling it to another one.”  The former outlook doesn’t seem to take into account that if both un/believers can do whatever “lighting up this world” seems to mean then there is nothing distinctively Christian about it. But only Christians, by the narrow definition of the gospel, can point the temporal world to the eternal one. </p>
<p>Life and marriage are common and temporal goods that everyone can affirm, but they pale in comparison to eternal life. Or does anyone imagine that Christ’s call to hate our temporal lives and marriages and lay them down as a prerequisite to eternal life means something else?</p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/12/what-does-it-declare/#comment-24079</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 15:28:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7488#comment-24079</guid>
		<description>If the salt loses its saltiness, it is good for nothing and is left to be trampled under the feet of men. Christians are not called just to another world but to influence, preserve, and light up the world around them. This should not be their _only_ goal, but it is something we do. If we believe that directions our country or world are heading are detrimental, we should speak up. That&#039;s what the MD does. I signed it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the salt loses its saltiness, it is good for nothing and is left to be trampled under the feet of men. Christians are not called just to another world but to influence, preserve, and light up the world around them. This should not be their _only_ goal, but it is something we do. If we believe that directions our country or world are heading are detrimental, we should speak up. That&#8217;s what the MD does. I signed it.</p>
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		<title>By: What Does it Declare? &#171; De Regno Christi</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/12/what-does-it-declare/#comment-24016</link>
		<dc:creator>What Does it Declare? &#171; De Regno Christi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:38:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7488#comment-24016</guid>
		<description>[...] 15, 2009 by dgwired    (The following was originally posted at Front Porch Republic on December [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 15, 2009 by dgwired    (The following was originally posted at Front Porch Republic on December [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Siarlys Jenkins</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/12/what-does-it-declare/#comment-23975</link>
		<dc:creator>Siarlys Jenkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 00:03:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7488#comment-23975</guid>
		<description>Apparently than link was damaged by the parenthesis.

http://archives.wittenburgdoor.com/archives/ecumenism.html

There it is without punctuation. Darn machines.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apparently than link was damaged by the parenthesis.</p>
<p><a href="http://archives.wittenburgdoor.com/archives/ecumenism.html" rel="nofollow">http://archives.wittenburgdoor.com/archives/ecumenism.html</a></p>
<p>There it is without punctuation. Darn machines.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Siarlys Jenkins</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/12/what-does-it-declare/#comment-23974</link>
		<dc:creator>Siarlys Jenkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 00:02:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7488#comment-23974</guid>
		<description>If a Christian can belong to any political party at all, the Democrats are an acceptable choice, and in my seldom humble opinion, far from the worst. I generally vote Democratic, since I resumed voting. Although I know there are many sincere, honorable, Republicans with many rational ideas to offer our nation, its been a long time since any of them ran for office.

I disagree with much of the content of the Manhattan Declaration. But I disagree even more with the &quot;targeting&quot; Daniel writes about. All political discourse has consequences, but to set someone up artificially for &quot;consequences&quot; because a citizen (even a bishop is a citizen) exercises their rights of free speech and assembly is a dangerous form of totalitarianism and enforced conformity. It is also terribly, terribly childish. We don&#039;t all think alike, and we don&#039;t have to. There is no groupthink in a republic. If we didn&#039;t have disagreements and things to discuss, there would be no need to vote at all.

I find it hypocritical for a church which believes it is the only True Church Established by Christ and the Apostles to sit down with clergy from &quot;not-churches&quot; to sign a common statement, without giving up its claim to an exclusive franchise. I find it hypocritical for churches capable of evangelizing Ireland, reporting that people there &quot;don&#039;t know Jesus as their savior&quot; to sit down with representatives of the &quot;Whore of Babylon.&quot; For God&#039;s sake, these guys can&#039;t even agree on how many books there are in the Bible. (For a humorous bit of self-promotion, check out this theme at
http://archives.wittenburgdoor.com/archives/ecumenism.html).

Also, I am unreservedly pro-choice, in the libertarian constitutional sense that first trimester abortion, some second trimester decisions, and decisions where the mother&#039;s life is in danger, are none of the business of The State.

Finally, I am sick of organizations and causes, from treatment of animals to gay rights to poor picked on oppressed Christians, wrapping themselves in the mantle of the Civil Rights Movement. It is more or less accepted that the Civil Rights Movement was A Good Thing, therefore it is a cheap short-cut to end debate on any subject by referencing The Civil Rights Movement. Any cause worthy of support will seek vindication on its own merits, not by drawing analogies. Each one is quite different.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If a Christian can belong to any political party at all, the Democrats are an acceptable choice, and in my seldom humble opinion, far from the worst. I generally vote Democratic, since I resumed voting. Although I know there are many sincere, honorable, Republicans with many rational ideas to offer our nation, its been a long time since any of them ran for office.</p>
<p>I disagree with much of the content of the Manhattan Declaration. But I disagree even more with the &#8220;targeting&#8221; Daniel writes about. All political discourse has consequences, but to set someone up artificially for &#8220;consequences&#8221; because a citizen (even a bishop is a citizen) exercises their rights of free speech and assembly is a dangerous form of totalitarianism and enforced conformity. It is also terribly, terribly childish. We don&#8217;t all think alike, and we don&#8217;t have to. There is no groupthink in a republic. If we didn&#8217;t have disagreements and things to discuss, there would be no need to vote at all.</p>
<p>I find it hypocritical for a church which believes it is the only True Church Established by Christ and the Apostles to sit down with clergy from &#8220;not-churches&#8221; to sign a common statement, without giving up its claim to an exclusive franchise. I find it hypocritical for churches capable of evangelizing Ireland, reporting that people there &#8220;don&#8217;t know Jesus as their savior&#8221; to sit down with representatives of the &#8220;Whore of Babylon.&#8221; For God&#8217;s sake, these guys can&#8217;t even agree on how many books there are in the Bible. (For a humorous bit of self-promotion, check out this theme at<br />
<a href="http://archives.wittenburgdoor.com/archives/ecumenism.html" rel="nofollow">http://archives.wittenburgdoor.com/archives/ecumenism.html</a>).</p>
<p>Also, I am unreservedly pro-choice, in the libertarian constitutional sense that first trimester abortion, some second trimester decisions, and decisions where the mother&#8217;s life is in danger, are none of the business of The State.</p>
<p>Finally, I am sick of organizations and causes, from treatment of animals to gay rights to poor picked on oppressed Christians, wrapping themselves in the mantle of the Civil Rights Movement. It is more or less accepted that the Civil Rights Movement was A Good Thing, therefore it is a cheap short-cut to end debate on any subject by referencing The Civil Rights Movement. Any cause worthy of support will seek vindication on its own merits, not by drawing analogies. Each one is quite different.</p>
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		<title>By: Albert</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/12/what-does-it-declare/#comment-23965</link>
		<dc:creator>Albert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7488#comment-23965</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Perhaps that is why Pope Benedict gave preeminence to charity over truth in his last encyclical, as did the writer of 1 Cor. 13 (”If I have not love, I am a noisy gong”), and John’s gospel, where God is identified as love.&lt;/blockquote&gt;Love is preeminent over &lt;i&gt;knowledge&lt;/i&gt;, not truth.  For Christ is identified as the &lt;i&gt;truth&lt;/i&gt; in John&#039;s gospel, and 1 Cor 13 tell us love rejoices with the truth.  So I would be wary of placing &quot;charity&quot; over and against &quot;truth.&quot;  You can have knowledge without love.  But love rejoices with the truth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Perhaps that is why Pope Benedict gave preeminence to charity over truth in his last encyclical, as did the writer of 1 Cor. 13 (”If I have not love, I am a noisy gong”), and John’s gospel, where God is identified as love.</p></blockquote>
<p>Love is preeminent over <i>knowledge</i>, not truth.  For Christ is identified as the <i>truth</i> in John&#8217;s gospel, and 1 Cor 13 tell us love rejoices with the truth.  So I would be wary of placing &#8220;charity&#8221; over and against &#8220;truth.&#8221;  You can have knowledge without love.  But love rejoices with the truth.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve K.</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/12/what-does-it-declare/#comment-23963</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve K.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7488#comment-23963</guid>
		<description>I think a lot of the criticism of the declaration centers on points that the declaration leaves out this or that aspect of the Christian teaching and is therefore flawed, or should be rejected or at least not supported or signed. I think this is unfair to the signers, as it certainly does not represent the sum total of their preaching. They are simply calling attention to a particular, important social issue from an ecumenical Christian viewpoint. Do some people expect that they should attach a Catechism along with the declaration for it to be valid?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a lot of the criticism of the declaration centers on points that the declaration leaves out this or that aspect of the Christian teaching and is therefore flawed, or should be rejected or at least not supported or signed. I think this is unfair to the signers, as it certainly does not represent the sum total of their preaching. They are simply calling attention to a particular, important social issue from an ecumenical Christian viewpoint. Do some people expect that they should attach a Catechism along with the declaration for it to be valid?</p>
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		<title>By: BWilson</title>
		<link>http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2009/12/what-does-it-declare/#comment-23954</link>
		<dc:creator>BWilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 20:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7488#comment-23954</guid>
		<description>&quot;Is the purpose of the gospel to yield the common good or eternal salvation?&quot; I think the answer is &quot;both&quot;.  To separate them would be to de-incarnate the Word, who was made flesh in this world and promised to remain with us until the end. On this point, I recommend David Schindler&#039;s book: Heart of the World, Center of the Church; and Hans Urs Von Balthasar&#039;s book: Love Alone is Credible.  

Statements like the Manhattan Declaration and the writings of natural law scholars like R. George, G. Grisez, and J. Finnis, while useful in many regards, do not foster the sort of unity or &quot;communion&quot; of hearts that is central to the Church&#039;s temporal and eternal mission.  Natural law arguments like those in the Manhattan Declaration typically involve believers asserting various truth claims against a rival group, leaving the argument at a rational, intellectual level that seems somehow unsatisfactory or inadequate (even if the assertions are true).  Perhaps that is why Pope Benedict gave preeminence to charity over truth in his last encyclical, as did the writer of 1 Cor. 13 (&quot;If I have not love, I am a noisy gong&quot;), and John&#039;s gospel, where God is identified as love.  While respect for human life, conjugal love, etc. are vital to a just and healthy society, and the drafters of the Manhattan Declaration are right to defend those truths, a public discourse that is based on truth assertions will, in my view, always fail to be compelling, in part, because the human person is made for something more than rationality - he is made for love.  In my view, a public discourse that invites skeptics to consider and pursue the development of a society built on love, rather than morals truths, is more likely to be compelling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Is the purpose of the gospel to yield the common good or eternal salvation?&#8221; I think the answer is &#8220;both&#8221;.  To separate them would be to de-incarnate the Word, who was made flesh in this world and promised to remain with us until the end. On this point, I recommend David Schindler&#8217;s book: Heart of the World, Center of the Church; and Hans Urs Von Balthasar&#8217;s book: Love Alone is Credible.  </p>
<p>Statements like the Manhattan Declaration and the writings of natural law scholars like R. George, G. Grisez, and J. Finnis, while useful in many regards, do not foster the sort of unity or &#8220;communion&#8221; of hearts that is central to the Church&#8217;s temporal and eternal mission.  Natural law arguments like those in the Manhattan Declaration typically involve believers asserting various truth claims against a rival group, leaving the argument at a rational, intellectual level that seems somehow unsatisfactory or inadequate (even if the assertions are true).  Perhaps that is why Pope Benedict gave preeminence to charity over truth in his last encyclical, as did the writer of 1 Cor. 13 (&#8220;If I have not love, I am a noisy gong&#8221;), and John&#8217;s gospel, where God is identified as love.  While respect for human life, conjugal love, etc. are vital to a just and healthy society, and the drafters of the Manhattan Declaration are right to defend those truths, a public discourse that is based on truth assertions will, in my view, always fail to be compelling, in part, because the human person is made for something more than rationality &#8211; he is made for love.  In my view, a public discourse that invites skeptics to consider and pursue the development of a society built on love, rather than morals truths, is more likely to be compelling.</p>
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