Canadian radio broadcaster David Cayley pulls up a chair to discuss Ivan Illich, a renegade priest and professor who argued against schools, missionaries, and modern medicine. Cayley, author of Ivan Illich: An Intellectual Journey, walks listeners through Illich’s thought and its applications to current tests like the pandemic.

Guest Host: Michael Sauter


0:30 Murdock asks, “Storied thinker or Tolstoy story?”

2:15 David Cayley, a man of Ideas

3:00 Sauter conversation with Cayley begins

4:00 Cayley on cassette

8:00 Corruption of the best is the worst, the West in a nutshell

10:15 Charles Taylor in the secular amen corner

11:45 Place, Limits, and Liberty (and Illich)

12:45 Freedom and the Wackosphere

13:45 What is enough?

15:45 “Three Dimensions of Public Choice”

18:00 Technologies you can’t put down

21:00 Free-relatedness and dependency on others

22:15 The risk of birth

24:30 Doorways to nowhere

27:00 Computerized people and COVID

29:30 Cayley’s death cult

31:00 Apocalypse and revelation

33:30 Beware an institutionalized Incarnation

35:30 Illich and friends around the table


Full interview and Sauter review

Ivan Illich: An Intellectual Journey

Obituary in The Lancet

The Death of Ivan Ilyitch

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