Kearneysville, WV. Last Friday something spectacular happened in Washington, D.C. No, peace did not break out between Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnell. No, the President did not agree to scale back his ambitious health care initiative. Instead, Coolidge High School announced that its new varsity football coach was a young science teacher named Natalie Randolph. The appointment makes Randolph one of only two female head coaches of a high school varsity football team in America.
By all accounts, the twenty-nine-year old Randolph is well-qualified. She was an NCAA Division I sprinter at the University of Virginia, and she played wide receiver for five years for a woman’s football team called the D.C. Divas. She was an assistant coach at another high school several years ago. Currently she is a teacher at Coolidge High and is popular with the students.
Washington, D.C. Mayor Adrian M. Fenty was present for the announcement. He listed her various qualifications and insisted that “Natalie Randolph, like all the head coaches who preceded her…is being honored because she’s the best person for this job.” Of course, that was not exactly true. The mayor does not make it a habit of attending the announcement of football coaches at D.C. high schools. This announcement was different.
Ms. Randolph is aware of the uniqueness of her new position, but she insists that she’s only interested in the players and the game.
People are going to say stuff wherever you go. I can’t control what people say,” Randolph said. “The first thing is, I love football, no matter whose domain it is. I’m going to do it. If I let people dictate what I do, I wouldn’t be where I am. While I’m proud to be a part of what this all means, being female has nothing to do with it.
Except that it does. If coaching was merely a technical process where an expert (the coach) taught certain game-specific skills to players, the gender issue might not matter. But coaching is more than that. Coaches–I mean the best kind of coaches–teach far more than the game. They provide an example to their players of strength, character, and grace under pressure. In the process, a good high school coach teaches boys how to be men. He can address them as men and encourage, cajole, and push them to behave in a way befitting men.
Furthermore, team sports–especially intensely physical ones–provide a cauldron in which strong bonds of male friendship and camaraderie can develop. These are goods that extend far beyond the field of play. Their possibility is diminished and perhaps even destroyed when females are on the team. I suspect that the same dynamic will be at work when a woman leads the team.
Boys, no less than girls, need role-models. To be sure, boys need female role models who exhibit, in word and deed, what it means to be a woman of character, grace, and dignity. But at the same time, boys need male role models who demonstrate the character traits proper to men. Boys, after all, are future men, and they will be less equipped for adulthood if their formative years are bereft of men they can respect and seek to emulate. This is one role a coach can, and should, fill.
One of the team moms expressed her delight that a female would be coaching her son:
A female coach will be more compassionate, more concerned about the children getting home at a certain time, and not just making it all about football.
Well. First, I will happily admit that many coaches are not necessarily compassionate. I recall a basketball coach in high school who was so ticked off at our performance that he made us run suicides while he yelled and threw basketballs at us. Compassionate? No. A bit on the Spartan side? Yes. I am not necessarily condoning his behavior, and in the various teams I have coached, I have never employed his tactics. But there was a spirit of intensity and camaraderie in that gym that would have dissipated if a woman was present, either as an observer, a player, or a coach.
One web site emphasized the social progress this story represents:
Maybe some day a woman coaching a football team won’t be a big deal. But today it is. Natalie Randolph has accomplished something very big.
No one will deny that Ms. Randolph is breaking new territory. But is one more step toward a gender-blind society a good thing? Does the triumph of egalitarianism help us better to realize our maleness and femaleness or does it further blur lines that are already hazy? A world of metro-sexuals and G.I. Janes is more difficult than ever to navigate. Shall I defer to a woman because she is a woman? Do I hold the door, or will she be offended and think me patronizing? For three years I rode the D.C. Metro and each day I tried to give my seat to women who were standing. Usually, they politely refused. Very rarely an elderly woman would smile gracefully and accept my offer. Sometimes a man would slide into my seat instead. I once saw a military man give up his seat for a pregnant woman, but in general, chivalry, at least in that context, is dead. That’s a loss to all of us. Society is less coherent, not to mention less pleasant, when men and women are confused about their respective roles, prerogatives, and privileges.
Men and women are different, and certain activities are qualitatively different–and qualitatively better–when they occur in a single-sex environment. Advocates of female colleges know this. Men who once joined men’s clubs knew this. Women don’t invite men to baby showers because a man’s presence would change the nature of the event, and furthermore, most men would be loathe to attend because of the nature of the event. Single-sex sports environments can provide some of the same unique goods that other single-sex environments provide.
I have no reason to think that Ms. Randolph will not succeed in her new position. I do, though, feel a twinge of sadness for the boys who, while they may be getting a knowledgeable and compassionate coach, are missing out on a tremendous gift: a coach who can not only teach them football, but more importantly, who can show them how to be men.
106 comments
Brendan McHugh
I guess the word for these people is: “Stop. Think.” Two words, I suppose.
Deanna
“I just don’t see the point of ruling out somebody who has good tactical knowledge of a sport, etc. plus great leadership and teamwork building skills simply because of their gender or color.”
What is the purpose of football? Is it a recreational outlet for building a healthy community or is it a business for generating wealth? Why would a woman not coach a women’s football team, except that perhaps it does not create the wealth and power that men’s teams do? Why don’t women’s teams generate the wealth and power of men’s teams? In my opinion, these are not questions of gender equality, these are questions of values. I recommend Wendell Berry’s Sex, Economy, Freedom, and Community.
Bruce Smith
Mark. I appreciate that. I use race and age merely as further examples of “labels” that get pointlessly attached.
Bruce Smith
Mark. I don’t particularly disagree with the idea that not all sports are created equal I just don’t see the point of ruling out somebody who has good tactical knowledge of a sport, etc. plus great leadership and teamwork building skills simply because of their gender or color. Its like applying a filter for the wrong reasons and missing out on a great opportunity. I guess I’ve been lucky to work with some great female leaders and in my own family I’ve seen a female build up a small charity from scratch to employ twenty people using great leadership skills. Maybe not too many females find football that appealing but some do and the movie “Remember the Titans” showed the white coach’s young daughter obsessive and highly knowledge about football as a result of her excellent relationship with her father. Great talent tends to be rare so why handicap yourself in the selection process! A great coach irrespective of gender, color or age will free individuals from prejudice anyway.
Mark T. Mitchell
Bruce,
Just to be clear: I am not saying anything about women leaders per se. Nor am I saying anything about race. Race and sexuality are not analogous. While I am arguing that in some contexts, the maleness or femaleness of the coach matters, the race of the coach is not an issue.
Brendan McHugh
A few more wrinkles: is she a mother figure? Is she a sister figure? Would the boys benefit more from a brother figure or a father figure, as young females might benefit more from a figure of their own sex?
Granted, the sister and the mother have a great deal to offer young and old men alike, but perhaps sports is not the best format for that education. Another discipline might be more appropriate.
Mark T. Mitchell
Bruce,
I think this is a great question and does perhaps count as a point against my argument. At the very least it suggests there is more to think about on this matter. I’ll add another wrinkle: a woman coaching a boy’s golf team doesn’t strike me as nearly problematic as a woman football coach. So is the issue team sports vs. individual sports? Well, maybe not. A woman coaching a boys wrestling team would be a problem in my book. Now let’s flip it around. I assume you would be OK with a man coaching a girl’s golf team. How about a man coaching a girl’s wrestling team? What about a girl’s wrestling team in the first place? In other words, maybe all sports are not created equal.
Bruce Smith
“Coaches–I mean the best kind of coaches–teach far more than the game. They provide an example to their players of strength, character, and grace under pressure. In the process, a good high school coach teaches boys how to be men. He can address them as men and encourage, cajole, and push them to behave in a way befitting men.”
If this is the case Mark what are all these male coaches doing with female basketball teams? You see them so often on TV and nobody seems to get uptight about it.
Brendan McHugh
An odd example jumped to my mind: young Argentine men were required to practice the tango with each other under the supervision of expert adult men before they ever approached a young lady. When they did, they were experienced and had already learned not to step on feet.
Perhaps sports is a similar affair.
Brendan McHugh
If we’re just talking about “normative” situations, it would be better to keep genders separated, I agree, especially if it is a situation that orients the players to their proper gender roles. But I think there comes a time when athletics can be used to teach players how to relate to members of the opposite sex. When I played ultimate frisbee in college, girls were included on each team, and although their inclusion did not by any means eliminate male bravado – as one guy slapped another fellow in the chest with the frisbee – it did make the men more courteous, not only to the girls, but also to each other. The absence of women from sports at all times would be just as tragic as the absence of women from civilization. It seems they tend to have a civilizing effect.
Deanna
I think this discussion about men and women is less about men and women and more about our values as individuals and as a society. I have to wonder if women (or men) would be grasping for coaching positions if football was just a sport. What makes this job so desirable is that it provides the coach with a great deal of wealth and power. As I said before, football is no longer a form of recreation; it is Big Business. The discussion about whether men or women are better suited to this work ignores the fact that we have assigned football and coaching a place in society that it does not deserve. The most important work is that which values tradition, home, marriage, family, community, place, etc. Again, I have to wonder if women (and men) would be so quick to abandom the home if we recognized the real value of the work done there.
George Marshall
A lot of the comments above remind me of those against all male schools, i.e. that males who go to them will not be able to interact properly with females because they will have no experience in doing so. I always thought that argument incorrect because boys attending those schools would have plenty of opportunity to interact with females. In the same way, those football players with a female coach will have other opportunities for male role models. Is the only male role model they will have their football coach? If so, what about all those other males at the school?
My wrestling coach didn’t teach me to be a man…he taught me about the sport, responsibility and sportsmanship. But none of that had to do with the fact he was a man. I had a lot of male and female teachers in HS, but I don’t think any taught me anything about gender roles. Plus, is it really the responsibility of the school to do that?
Bruce Smith
The Wicked Witch of the West.
Of course calling a woman a witch has always been a time-honored way of shutting a woman up who was telling you something you didn’t want to hear, or doing something better than you, or just plain doing something you didn’t want. If she wouldn’t desist well then you accused her of doing stuff behind your back and threw her on the fire:-
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/opinion/26krugman.html?src=me&ref=opinion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g
Bruce Smith
John. I’m sure she doesn’t limit herself to kicking Democrat ass (Obama’s)!
John Willson
Bruce Smith,
Sure would like to have the Wicked Witch of the West as my football coach! By the way, she is 70 today. I will be the same three score years and ten on Sunday. I was born to cancel her vote.
Bruce Smith
Interesting to read about the Aeta women’s hunting ability in the Phillipines in the section on Social and Economic Structure in this Wikipedia article on Hunter Gatherer’s:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter-gatherer
Can’t imagine there would be a great deal of stereo-typing going on for this supposedly typical male activity amongst these people.
Bruce Smith
One can go through the “trenches” and learn to be a better sociopath, a better trained killer. I think football has more aspects to it than being Rambo. The beginning of our learning process to act morally and be a team player usually starts with the mother-child bond and certainly teaching team-playing particularly helps keep the sanity of a mother with several children. Many males who’ve posted in this argument seem to have forgotten the authoritative role mothers play probably including their own. Their world has become dominated by the need to look up to “father” figures whereas it seems saner and more rational to me to keep some balance and see that above average leadership skills can be developed by either sex. Pointing out that there seem to be more above average leaders amongst males doesn’t particularly prove anything other than they carry a higher media profile whilst many women choose the less newsworthy option of raising children. This does not preclude the potential for those females to take on a higher media profile leadership role as child rearing pressures abate and you have such an example currently before you who has a very high media profile, Nancy Pelosi. And yes, you may love her or hate her politics, but some media reported that out of sheer frustration she decided to kick ass to get the Health Care bill through, namely Obama’s! Her biography reveals that in her younger years she gave birth to five children in six years. I’m very confident she learned some great leadership techniques in civilizing and motivating that brood! No one doubts that you have to study football and there may well be advantages to playing it but it is not axiomatic you will become a great coach through merely playing it. There are countless examples throughout sporting history of great players who failed to make it as coaches. Leadership skills are complex and can be learned through experience even I suggest at home where the child usually gets the first taste of submission through a female as well as a male authority!
Grammar
“One additional thought: anyone in a position of leadership has to have credibility with the group they are leading. Part of that credibility is predicated on the knowledge that the person leading you has gone through and survived in the trenches him (or her) self.”
This statement does have some interesting repercussions if we translate it to the classroom. For example, can I teach African American history as a white man? Can I teach about the Jim Crow south having never been “in the trenches” or without having experienced prejudice and discrimination to anywhere near that extent? There are other obvious places this applies as far as who gets to teach what, but I believe this example makes the point well. It is a problem we must consider.
Jeffrey Polet
I have little to add to the other comments, except to re-emphasize how this seems to me a continuation of the war against boys, and thus an addition to the FPR canon on how gender constructivism has worked to the disadvantage of boys and girls alike.
One additional thought: anyone in a position of leadership has to have credibility with the group they are leading. Part of that credibility is predicated on the knowledge that the person leading you has gone through and survived in the trenches him (or her) self. It would be difficult to be an effective football coach without having been a player, both in terms of your credibility and in terms of your intimate knowledge of the game. Perhaps the day will come when we mandate that each team must field so many females, most of whom would do so to their distinct disadvantage.
Which itself raises the specter of the unintended consequences of any project of social engineering. If we take Title IX to be emblematic of the effort to create equality for females, one of its more pernicious effects has been to cap male involvement in college athletics at the level of female interest.
Sam M
“I agree with you that young people are over fixated on entertainment and have an aversion to work. As a young person myself (I just turned twenty two), I’ll say that I hardly blame them, given the intensely boring and stiffling nature of the “work” offered by modern society.”
Go back to any period of history and find some thoughts about “kids these days.” I am pretty sure this is what all people thought at all times.
At what stage, exactly, was work not “stifling and boring”? People sure complained about it a lot.
pb
*than I did.
pb
Brandon, I am a bit envious of you as you seem to have discovered some very important lessons at a much earlier age than me. I am waiting to see if the economic crisis precipitates a move towards localism where I live, but I don’t count on it.
Brandon
In addition, I forgot to mention that besides the consumerist nature of popular culture and entertainment, I think that young people seek entertainment as a rebellion (consious or subconsious) against the paths of drudgery offered to them.
There are other factors contributing here as well, such as massive feelings of entitlement among the young and a general lack of work ethic, but at the core is an essentially spiritual problem.
Brandon
Deanna-
I agree with you that young people are over fixated on entertainment and have an aversion to work. As a young person myself (I just turned twenty two), I’ll say that I hardly blame them, given the intensely boring and stiffling nature of the “work” offered by modern society. Most of it involves pushing papers in a cubicle or working with technology in some form or another. Young people are constantly told how important “math and science” are (to the detriment of most other subjects) and how they need to “get a good job” which usually means one of three career routes: (business, engineering, or technology).
I am dealing with this pressure myself right now. I am a Philosophy major in college and am constantly ridiculed for getting a “worthless degree” and that I should of gone after a degree which will make me some money. However, I have no interest in the current careers paths offered.
I believe there is an intrinsic need for meaning in the lives of human beings and today’s young people are no exception. The work scene today provides little in the way of spiritual fulfillment for anyone. It merely makes one feel like a cog in the ever turning wheels of production and consumption.
I would love nothing more than to be able to be a cowboy or a farmer and live a simple life, raising a family and doing good, hard, honest work on the land. Simple work that leads to purpose and meaning in the lives of individuals and families is the best. However, this is increasingly a non-option. And don’t get me wrong, I believe in intellectual pursuits as well, being an avid knowledge seeker myself. But the career choices given to us all in our corporate centered and hyper-technological world have deprived the human soul of a reason to work.
In short, modern day “work” has been stripped of humanity in the name of efficiency and “progress. No wonder many reject it as boring.
Deanna
The discussion about work and boredom illuminates our societal aversion to work. I was talking recently with two older women, one of whom raised 12 children, about (ironically) the differences between boys and girls, and both commented that their children never complained about being bored because there was always a lot to do. I believe that there is still a lot to do, but our young people are unwilling to do it because it all takes work, and they are convinced that work is boring. For them, work serves to provide the money they need to buy the entertainment they want. Our young people are in a constant search for entertainment.
I recall a story told by John Seymour in one of his books. He was listening intently as an elderly woman described all the activities she had done daily on her farm. When she was finished, he commented that it must have been a lot of work. At which point, she looked at him and replied, no one ever told us it was a lot of work.
Katherine T
Dr. Mitchell,
I second your idea of having a colloquium/further discussion on the topic of gender and gender roles. I think that would be a great, especially if Jeff Taylor would come. Great post, Jeff; I found your writing persuasive and incredibly thought provoking.
~kt
Bruce Smith
Ah the joys of writing the coach job description. Must be able to act like a “father figure”. Now should that be defined as more like Father Christmas or Rambo? Mmmm…..passing that Equal Opportunities act with that bit about age discrimination doesn’t help in the least!
John Willson
Wow, nothing like football and women to bring out the FPR fault-lines! I love it!
Now, as someone who has played all the sports invented in New England (football, baseball, basketball) and coached them as well, and has played rugby and lacrosse and coached women’s track and cross country at the college level and still coach the kickers on our college football team (at three score years and ten)–sorry, folks, just establishing bonafides here–I guess I come down like the troll under the bridge.
That athletics became part of the Great Social Engineering Operation after the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Educational Amendments Act (“Title IX”) of 1972 was ridiculous enough, but to regard women coaching boys or men in football is pure Alice in Wonderland.
I’ve never really cared what the chattering classes think about football. They will never make it go away until it sinks under its own weight of moral and economic corruption (and, given little league fathers and NFL salaries, it just might). Football is an inherently beautiful game, full of grace, courage, teamwork, sacrifice, hope, and manliness. A few women are welcome to play it, but nobody will ever watch them or think of them as promoting anything feminine. If I had a son playing in the district this–for all I know perfectly smart and nice and tough–young woman is appointed to coach, I would simply and quietly change schools.
My wife comes to the playing field after our home football games and she is the first person my kickers want to see, to give her a hug. No social engineering there.
Wessexman
It perhaps worth adding that homesteading, which is my dream “job” and probably the best of all regular “employments”(imho.) greatly overlaps with homemaking anyway.
Wessexman
With the possible exception of homesteading, a traditional craft in which its true spiritual and vocational nature is allowed, being a writer or artist or a very few outdoors jobs like park ranger or leading nature hikes or something(all of these jobs are either hard to get or like homesteading don’t bring in a great lot of money even if I’d do them anyway.) I cannot think of a modern job better and less boring than a traditional homemaker.
Even many of those modern jobs you might think are less boring, like police officer on balance don’t seem to be.
Deanna
Cecilia,
As a homemaker, I disagree with your understanding of the value of this vocation. With all due respect, I am more than a baby-factory or maid or loony crafter. None of these describe my actual value to society. I am an intelligent, college educated woman whose vocation to homemaking contributes to the building of a culture that is socially, economically, and politically healthy. Thus, my contribution extends beyond the home. I am raising nine young people as intelligent, responsible, charitable members of our society. I am also an active member of my parish, a social justice ministry, the local schools, my city, and several scouting programs. These offer me many opportunities for sharing my intelligence, skills, and talents. My impact on our society is greater and reaches further than if I was working full time for a pay check.
Having said that, the question is not whether women should have the right to work outside the home, but whether a woman’s advancement outside the home is a true victory for all women. I believe that women should be allowed to work and advance in their career if they so choose, but I disagree that women’s work outside the home is more valuable than women’s work inside the home. For this reason, I assert that one woman’s career advancement can not be hailed as a victory for ALL women.
Deanna
pb
“Should all activities be separated by gender or are some meant to be co-educational? If co-educational, what activities should be segregated and which mixed? ”
Sports activites should be separated.
“If separated, when will members of either gender learn to deal with the messiness of working with members of the opposite gender in various contexts, not the least of which is the workplace where a man might have a female superior?”
Men do fine learning on the job, even if their superior, regardless of sex, is incompetent. Marriage is where men and women really need to learn how to work together. Outside of marriage, that sort of socialization isn’t that difficult, although the topic of misandrist rules/laws governing the workplace can be left for a different discussion.
Grammar
Pb,
These are the type of specific differences that I was asking for. Now that they have been specified allow me to reiterate and clarify some of the problems that I originally pointed out about this piece. Let’s set aside, for the sake of argument, the fact that girls do play football and it is conceivable that an adolescent girl may be better than her male counterpart at a given position. This fact alone exposes some real flaws considering that you would then have to decide whether it is more important for a female on the team to have a strong role model or for the males to have one. That said, I see some real problems with the belief that adolescent males must have male role models as coaches. I’m not going to disagree that it is good for males to have good male role models, but I do not think that all leadership positions should be decided according to this standard. In other words, what are the limits of this rule? Should all activities be separated by gender or are some meant to be co-educational? If co-educational, what activities should be segregated and which mixed? If separated, when will members of either gender learn to deal with the messiness of working with members of the opposite gender in various contexts, not the least of which is the workplace where a man might have a female superior? Perhaps the implication is that women should never exercise authority over men past adolescence. This is a situation in which I can not see much merit. Maybe the solution is for men to step up and be those role models no matter what their role in society. Perhaps we should expand our definition of role model to include people who do not occupy leadership positions, but interact with adolescents every day. This way there is a plethora of good role models and less of a need to mandate them in certain situations. Perhaps that is too ideal.
In addition, when you quote the word primitive please remember that I never used that word to describe traditional societies. It is not my intent to disparage traditional ways of living, but I do believe that improvements may be made. My critique of your position still stands. A society that grants power only to those with brute strength leads to a survival of the fittest situation. When you add the aspect of respect you are either implying that women are not worthy of respect in this way or that they do not have the strength to garner respect, which, of course, is circular reasoning.
Sam M
“Homemaking is boring – mind numbingly boring.”
So are most jobs. Even good jobs.
“I challenge any male who asserts the superiority of spending your time making beds and cleaning the bathroom over male work to spend a year or two doing such.”
I challenge any woman who asserts the superiority of spending your time swinging a sledgehammer and digging ditches over female work to spend a year or two doing such.
richard
PB,
Indeed the men should be helping more, but there will be tension. Actually, my wife and I have a very divergent standard of “clean”.
However, this can vary among women too. One of the sources of conflict in my marriage has been a cleaning standard that most of the women who raised me maintained. My wife refers to this standard as “dirty English”, blaming some of my DNA.
All marriages are compromises.
pb
I agree with the author that for adolescent males and young men, a father figure is more important than a mother figure.
I should add that in a fragmented, atomistic society, the more reinforcement of a positive understanding of masculinity the better, and so adolescent males need more father figures to bear witness to it, not less.
pb
Richard:
However, since you brought up the topic of dangerous myths, I would put forward that one of the most dangerous myths is that a woman “can do it all” as professional,wife and mom. The young professional women I meet are working the same 60 hour week as their male counterparts. They either burnout by also trying to cook and clean, keeping some semblance of a household; or the successful ones hire “somebody else” to scrub the toilet and buy take-out dinners. Thus “somebody else” gets the drudgery of cleaning toilets for strangers all day, and Then gets to go home and clean their own toilet.
Obviously, the men should be helping women out more. Or did you not see that response coming?
To which it can be noted that men and women have different standards of what is to be considered “clean” and that one standard isn’t necessarily the “right” one.
pb
Grammar:
I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. The logic is flawed because you have committed a non sequitur. In other words your conclusions are not the necessary end of your premise. You assert that men are different from women and thus should occupy different roles in society. The flaw here is that difference alone does not dictate an inability to fulfill similar roles, e.g. blacks and whites. The missing step is that you do not clearly state what specific attributes men have that women do not that make them unqualified to coach high school football.
If there is anyone talking about qualification solely with respect to technical expertise, it’s you. Hence it’s a non sequitur, for you. But Mr. Mitchell is arguing that a coach is not merely a teacher of how to play football — he is more than that. In so far as a coach is a father figure to males, then a woman cannot be a coach. You may argue that a coach doesn’t have to be a father figure. I agree with the author that for adolescent males and young men, a father figure is more important than a mother figure.
That is the issue, hence the relevance of female teachers. Females that teach at the secondary level are examples of women exercising authority over adolescent males.
Not really. They exercise more authority at the primary level — here I use authority in a strict sense with respect to giving direction related to moral spheres of action. In high school there is very little of this. Some may take it upon themselves to advise young men about doing what is morally right, but I am betting that very few young men ask them for this advice. To speak of authority in other sense is to use it equivocally.
As far as doing this without the support of society, culture and the rule of law, I think that if we take this point to its logical conclusions we see some very serious problems. Without these supports it would be difficult for anyone to exercise authority and inevitably it would come down to a contest of brute strength in which many men, as well as women, would lose out. Something about this survival of the fittest scenario does not seem optimal or even desirable.
There can be hierarchy based not only on strength but also on respect, as you see in “primitive” societies. I wouldn’t characterize them as “survival of the fittest.” Without the aid of men, women would not be given positions of authority outside of the family. That’s reality.
richard
Hi Celilia,
I have no issue with a woman using her God given gifts to teach. Having been raised in some unusually archaic circumstances, I also have no romantic notions about some past “good old days”. Many of your observations about the problem are spot on.
However, since you brought up the topic of dangerous myths, I would put forward that one of the most dangerous myths is that a woman “can do it all” as professional,wife and mom. The young professional women I meet are working the same 60 hour week as their male counterparts. They either burnout by also trying to cook and clean, keeping some semblance of a household; or the successful ones hire “somebody else” to scrub the toilet and buy take-out dinners. Thus “somebody else” gets the drudgery of cleaning toilets for strangers all day, and Then gets to go home and clean their own toilet.
The sad fact is that somebody has to clean the toilet. Getting out of necessary work is the cause of a lot of social ills. By the way, prior to indoor plumbing, cleaning the toilet was mens’ work. I never was old enough to do it, but watched the operation. It brought the concept of drudgery to a new low.
My personal take on this is that we need better theology of work and vocation in our society. Then we can look drudgery right in the eye and spread it out fairly.
I enjoyed reading and thinking about your comments.
Brandon
Cecelia– Thank you for clarifying your position! I agree with you that consumer society has poisoned every aspect of our lives and made it nearly impossible for anything of substance to take root. It is very much the stuff of tragedy.
Grammar
Pb,
I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. The logic is flawed because you have committed a non sequitur. In other words your conclusions are not the necessary end of your premise. You assert that men are different from women and thus should occupy different roles in society. The flaw here is that difference alone does not dictate an inability to fulfill similar roles, e.g. blacks and whites. The missing step is that you do not clearly state what specific attributes men have that women do not that make them unqualified to coach high school football. That is the issue, hence the relevance of female teachers. Females that teach at the secondary level are examples of women exercising authority over adolescent males. As far as doing this without the support of society, culture and the rule of law, I think that if we take this point to its logical conclusions we see some very serious problems. Without these supports it would be difficult for anyone to exercise authority and inevitably it would come down to a contest of brute strength in which many men, as well as women, would lose out. Something about this survival of the fittest scenario does not seem optimal or even desirable.
Cecelia
I should have been clearer in my post – homemaking is not done by a woman alone – homes are made by families and yes the woman usually serves a singular role as organizer of the whole effort. But a FAMILY makes a home. The unfortunate thing is that the noble and joyous act of homemaking also includes housework – which is mind numbingly boring.
I appreciate you meet woman who stay at home and are rapturous about it – I meet woman who worry that their brains are turning into jello and who are rapturous when their kids get older and they can get a part time job.
The assertion that toilet cleaning, floor moping, and polishing the silver is all it takes to fulfill any human being is nonsense and all this rhetoric about the great sanctified and superior status of household drudgery is at worst propaganda and at best a susceptibility to myth. Woman like men have talents and gifts that are God given and like men they find satisfaction is using those talents and gifts in ways that do not apply to doing the laundry. I take great pride in my home and my table – I grow our vegetables/fruits and jar that which I grow. I bake my own bread and I even quilt. But I also have a full time job as a professor which is a source of great accomplishment and pleasure to me and enriches my family life too.
The difficulty with believing in myths is we end up losing reality. Woman and men historically both used to work in the home so that women were not isolated in their homemaking. Women raised chickens and sold the eggs, they sold their surplus candles, they made cloth and sewed. They contributed financially to the family and expressed their intelligence and creativity in those activities. Urban and working class woman did not stay home – they went to the factory or the house they cleaned or did laundry for just like their husbands.
Today – women who stay at home do not contribute financially to the family – so they express their creativity and intelligence by buying Martha Stewart craft kits at the Mall – seriously take a look at some of the looney things woman get themselves involved in – I know – I have done it. Woman at home no longer have the company of other woman or their husbands. They are isolated and that isolation is very wearing. Consider the role of corporate policies in absence of fathers from the home. Professional class workers are expected to work a standard 60 hour week. Ergo absent fathers. Working class men end up with two jobs to support families. I suspect those corporate policies have more to do with feminizing our sons than the two female football coaches.
Perhaps in the days of GK Chesterton it was possible for a woman to find stimulation and opportunities to express her creativity in the home. But the world Chesterton knew isn’t around anymore. The stay at home Mom is as much a consumer and as much a product of our distorted consumer society as the working Mom. If we really do want to create the Front Porch society – we need to be real about separating the past from what is happening now.
Wessexman
Indeed, I was going to say the same Richard. It is rather different being a homemaker in a traditional setting with extended family, neighbours and friends frequently looking in to being a suburban stay-at-home mum today. But I still don’t think that would be more boring than most jobs today.
richard
Cecelia,
I have met a number of young women who feel exactly opposite of you. Even some with “professional” careers that might be thought to bring fulfillment. They would much rather be home with their babies.
I would agree that being an isolated housewife in a suburban house might be stifling. The suburbs down the road from me are eerily empty all day. However, extended family used to do much to eliminate the isolation that leads to boredom. When I was a little agrarian kid, a lot of work (canning, cooking, child rearing, gardening, butchering) was shared between my mom, grandma and aunts. My older great uncles pitched in, as did my dad and uncles when they came home. While there was a traditional division of labor by gender, the idea of Dad having a right to come home from work and plop down to watch TV because he spent 8 hours at work was unknown. An extended family and neighbors did not eliminate drudgery, but it did make it sociable.
Brandon
And also, as a very exuberant and dynamic homemaker I once had the pleasure of being acquainted with told me: “If a woman finds homemaking boring, she must be lacking in creativity and intelligence.”
Brandon
Indeed, Wessexman. This stiffling drudgery of the modern workplace leaves much to be desired.
Wessexman
I disagree Cecelia, most jobs in the modern economy are very boring. Even in a more traditional setting it is hard to see how providing for and building a healthy household can be seen as more boring than most jobs.
Cecelia
Homemaking is boring – mind numbingly boring. Yes – I get much satisfaction from providing a nice home and good meals for my family – but part of why I can be so satisfied is that I get to have an occupation outside my home which is challenging and stimulating and financially rewarding. I challenge any male who asserts the superiority of spending your time making beds and cleaning the bathroom over male work to spend a year or two doing such.
pb
Grammar: The logic is fine, your difficulty is not with the logic but with the assertions being made, which you think are false. Women can exercise authority over children as mothers and teachers. Then there is the exercise of authority over adolescent males and men. Getting males follow orders when there is a support system and culture of obedience and respect for the rule of law? Not too difficult. Starting from scratch or under primitive conditions, when there is much at stake? Virtually impossible.
Junker
Anyone ever see this movie??
http://watch-classic-movies.blogspot.com/2009/11/watch-swept-away-online-free-old.html
Very interesting flick regarding the roles of the rich and poor, men and women……
Wessexman
Deanna excellent post. G.K Chesterton expresses this issue so well. This ideal of woman doing everything men do seems to me in fact a complete repudiation of centuries of female history and the woman of the past. It is saying homemaking is somehow inferior to other work, whereas I’d say it is superior to most, and that the woman of the past who often gloried in their roles were fools.
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